I got attacked tonight, I'm soooo shaken up!

ORIGINAL: Liesje
My back feels a lot better today.  Honestly, I can't 100% blame that on the dog attack since I was playing tug and some other chase games with a lab/Dane mix that day so it could have been sore from the workout in general. 

Unless I know my foster and also know that I have control over the dog when the dog is in an excitable state, I would not involve myself directly in competitive games with thedog. 

I respect that you said it is up to shelter to decide what to do but I also think your involvement and experience is crucial to what the shelter should do.  Don't listen to people in the shelter that are not in the know.  That is just gossip.  They, like posters here have no business making armchair judgement calls on the situation or fate of the dog.  You have documented your experience by the emails sent to the shelter's authorities and also to the behaviorist.  Now it is time to talk directly to them, but please don't expect an absolutely answer for now. 

They, like posters here have no business making armchair judgement calls on the situation or fate of the dog.

I assumed that Liesje would welcome support, commiseration and any input people responding to her posts would be interested in providing. I was under the impression that people posted for interraction - of course this kind of thing has happened before given that so many of us are involved in rescue and similar programs. If I've assumed incorrectly, by all means, I apologize. Perhaps we should restrict our responses to:
"Wow! I'm so sorry this has happened."?

YMMV
Paula

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I'm so amped up right now.  I have NO clue what happened, he just kept charging, biting, and pulling at me so hard.  I've never been so scared in my life.  Halfway through I just gave up.  I thought, as long as he can't get my throat, the worst is I will need lots of stitches, and I just hunched over and tried to yell for my husband but it all came out as a whimper.

If anyone can explain this incident, please do because I was more scared at the randomness and spontenaity of the attack than the bites themselves.  Thank GOD I was wearing good shoes, leather gloves, and a good fleece jacket or my hands, arms, and ankles would be ripped to shreads right now.

 
This is what the OP asked.  Why did the dog act that way?  Was there something she did that?  And she asked for comfort. 
 
No where was it ask to express an opinion on the fate of the dog.  Even the OP said she would not.  It was not necessary to bash the shelter when the shelter has not made a decision.  Based on a couple of personal experience, one poster here declared she stopped volunteering for shelters.  Does that poster want everyone to stop volunteering for the shelters.  I don't understand.  I just don't get it.  This forum bashes JQP for putting dogs in shelters then they bash shelters for trying to place the dog back with JQP.  The only one that gets hurt by this is the dog.

ORIGINAL: Liesje
 
I just feel so bad like maybe I did something wrong and now it's my fault he might not get adopted.

ORIGINAL:  DPU
 
No where was it ask to express an opinion on the fate of the dog.

The OP was blaming herself for the dog not being considered adoptable.  People were trying to assure her that it was not her fault and that not being adoptable should be the result of a dog attack.
 

This forum bashes JQP for putting dogs in shelters then they bash shelters for trying to place the dog back with JQP. 

I think the point was that there are good shelters and that there are bad shelters.  One needs to careful where he/she decides to volunteer.
 
This particular shelter had personnel that had no idea what to do about a dog attack - not good.  The OP was given the impression that a decision about the dog may have been made without even talking to her or seeing her injuries - not good. 
 
If the dog is adopted now, the shelter has a tremendous liability problem and I haven't seen an indication that they understand this.  If it is discovered that they don't keep complete and accurate reports about dog bites (I don't yet know if they do or not) or if this dog was to attack someone after being adopted, shelter personnel could even be charged criminally. 
 
I really believe that the OP should take dated pictures of all her injuries and give a copy to the shelter to protect herself in case of legal problems later.  If AC ever gets involved with this situation, they are going to want to know if the dog was quarantined for 10 days and, if not, why not!!

One thing that became crystal clear to me today is that there's a major communication issue here and this incident is really a good example.  For starters, when we were "trained" to be volunteers, we were told to report all questions or concerns about a dog's behavior or a bite to the behaviorist.  So, naturally when the dog bit me over and over, she was the first person I e-mailed, describing exactly what had happened.  Then, I assumed the volunteer coordinator would want to know, since although she doesn't work as directly with the animals, she would be considered my supervisor.  I sent her the same e-mail.  Then I called the next morning, but they were not open so I left a message.  There was no response (e-mail or phone) by 2pm so my husband called for me.  First he called the behaviorist and she did not answer, so he called the general line which went to the front desk.  Those people said they had no idea how to handle a bite situation and said we had to contact the behaviorist.  Then finally that evening, the behaviorist calls and leaves a message for us saying we should have told the manager.  I don't know the manager and I wouldn't know who she is or where to find her.  Plus, we were always told to contact the behaviorist.

So then this morning we go in looking for the behaviorist, but she's nowhere to be found.  Instead, the old volunteer coordinator (not the one I e-mailed) comes outside and asks if I'm OK and then says that stuff about how we should use a Gentle Leader and he was only "play biting" and what not.  I didn't want to get into it with her b/c she doesn't make the decision about the dog, so I was just like yeah sure whatever, I'm meeting with the behaviorist and the volunteer coordinator on Monday.

Seriously though, there needs to be a more explicit protocol for this type of thing.  I did what I was told, but apparently the person I was told to report to thought that was wrong.  I also stated in every communication that I was more than willing to fill out an official report, but they insisted that reports aren't necessary unless skin is broken.  So hypothetically a dog could crush someone's bones and there'd be no official report because skin is not broken?  Now it looks like I'm the one being bitchy and overreacting because everyone's telling me different things and I don't agree with ANY of it.

As I said before, I'll try to reserve judgement until I've met with the behaviorist on Monday, but I really wonder what would have happened and what would be be happening now if I were a volunteer that's 5 years younger and 50 pounds lighter....

All of the people I've talked to outside of the shelter and the dog world are appalled and keep saying they would never adopt or keep a dog after such an incident.  So if they are the demographic the shelter is targeting for future adoptions, I don't think the dog has any business being available.

Unless I know my foster and also know that I have control over the dog when the dog is in an excitable state, I would not involve myself directly in competitive games with the dog.

It's not really competitive, our tug game, because I always win.  I decided when we play, I will pick up the tug and offer it to him.  When I'm done, I have him sit and let go and that's it.  If he picks it up and tries to get me to play, I just turn away and ignore him.  Sometimes, I let him take it and chase him around a bit, but when I want it I make him sit and stay and I take it, that's it.  He's not an excitable dog and if he gets excited playing tug, I let go and turn away and we're done.  He's the only one I tug with because he's the only one I know will play nice and stop when I say so.  The only other games we play routinely are fetch with some of the retrievers and border collies.  Most of the dogs pay zero attention to the handlers in the runs.  All they care about is barking at other dogs and running back and forth.

Respectfully, it appears to  me the forum bashes a segment of JQP who: dump dogs when the new carpeting comes; dump dogs when the cute puppy from working or herding breeds, who has no formal training or socialization , becomes an adolescent brat; dump old dogs when they become inconvient; randomly breed a bitch or stud a dog 'cause they want to get back some of the money they paid for him; dump dogs when they chew as puppies or as adults out of boredom; dump dogs because they "need room to run" and building a fence is not in their plans (nor is adequate on line exercise);  or get a dog and tie them to a dog house and leave him/her there, the dog will attention when water and food is delivered which gets smaller and smaller in frequency and duration as the dog gets more excited about these limited visits.

JQP is just a term that has been used to define a group of folks who through benign neglect do not provide for dogs in manner that protects the dogs health and quality of life.  The posts of frustration are usually limited to the folks who have acted in the previously described manners.

Let me first say how truly sorry I am that this happened to you.  I've been following this thread, but haven't found time to post until now.  I also commend you for keeping your cool in a horrible situation.
 
I agree that this was an attack, and an unprovoked one at that.  You did absolutely nothing wrong.  Did you perhaps somehow hit a trigger?  Who knows?  But even if you did it was unintentional.
 
I agree that it sounds like the inmates are running the asylum at that shelter and the lack of communication or a specific course of action is appalling.
 
I too think you should INSIST on filling out a report, INSIST on medical care and insist on having a voice in the evaluation of this animal.  He's potentially a loaded gun in the hands of a toddler.
 
And yep, I know no one asked for an opinion, but there you have it!

did you post on the right thread

 
Yes, I did. My initial advice would be not to adopt out this dog. Perhaps, PTS. And that the op should not browbeat herself. That advice wasn't welcome. So, I tried to be supportive and offer measures from a rescue org that once had a reactive Rhodesian Ridgeback, which was careful management in a one pet home and muzzle when necessary.
 
Evidently, that advice is not welcome, either.
 

"I don't foster any dogs, this is a shelter dog at the shelter. We're not talking about a scrape of the finger or hand either."

My apologies for mentioning fostering.

"There's always scrapes, bruises, and punctures all over my hands and lower arms. IMO, a dog lunging from behind and biting into my shoulder is a bit different than an accidental bite from a dog missing his toy. Unfortunately, the shelter does not muzzle dogs. Either they are acceptable for adoption or they're not. There's just too many of them and that's the way they operate."

Then quit beating yourself up. Report it and let the dog be PTS. That is most humane for everyone. And I'll quit posting in this thread. I was just trying to help and am evidently failing at that.

Update Again....


Yesterday was the spring open house adopt-a-thon and I was a runner for an adoption counsellor (basically, I got the cats and dogs they wanted to meet, tried to answer questions about the temperament of the dogs I knew, and the cousellor did the rest of the talking).

I saw Wally's folder in the pile and was shocked that he was put back into the pool.  However, it was so insanely busy it really wasn't the appropriate time to make a stink.  I thought of pulling the folder (when a person shows interest in an animal, you pull the folder so no other person can adopt that animal unless the folder is returned), but I decided to just keep an eye on it.  At the very end, the last interview with my counsellor, these people wanted to adopt Wally.  In his folder, it said that besides being surrendered, he's already been adopted and returned for his "rough" behavior.  Luckily, I didn't have to even say anything b/c these people had a toddler and the requirements were ages 15+ firm.  Still, I was annoyed that there was no mention of the bite in his folder.

I'm supposedly meeting with the volunteer coordinator and the behaviorist today, so this is an e-mail I just sent to the volunteer coordinator and CCed to the behaviorist:

"Hi, did you still want to try and meet w/ N--- today about the bite and how to deal w/ them in the future?  How late do you stay?  I can try to get off work and come a little earlier, but I don't want to keep you guys later than usual.  I might be able to leave my work at 4 and would be there by 4:30.  Someone told me that N--- is often there until 7pm, but I don#%92t want to take up too much of her time if she#%92s busy.   I'd like to hear what N--- thinks of the incident, if there is some explanation for Wally's behavior.  I'm mainly concerned for any kids or an adoptive family, heck even adults, that might come into contact with Wally.  I'm not afraid of him and I'm certainly not out to punish him or blame him for anything.  He#%92s a beautiful boy and seemed really intelligent with a lot of potential.  You grow up with big dogs your whole life and at some point you'll get bit, I'm over it  but I'd be concerned if he's still available for adoption with no plans to try to explain or rehab this type of behavior.  I mean, I'm 5'7" weigh 155 lbs and was a competitive athlete and when he lost it, the more I tried to regain control of him the more aggressive he became, the look in his eyes was truly terrifying and what was most frightening to me at the time was that I couldn#%92t figure out what made him snap like that.  He just seemed so angry.  I've been bitten on the face by a Rottweiler, played rough with (not by choice), jumped on, lunged at, and play bitten by many a dog in my time including a few at the Humane Society (mainly that silly Buttercup, the cute little devil!), but this was different, it#%92s difficult to explain, but it was like something in him snapped and he had to take out all his frustration on someone or something at that moment...It makes me worry for the little girls that volunteer that are so much smaller than me, or any child or smaller woman considering adopting him without understanding his issues and without several layers of clothing to protect them...I love dogs more than anything and have grown up around big rambunctious labradors, but if I had to be honest with myself, if I#%92d seen him do what he did to me with a friend or family member, I#%92d have a very hard decision to make.  If there#%92s something we can do to help him, train him, or rehab him out of this behavior we are more than willing to help.   PS.  Yesterday was a lot of fun!  You guys are all awesome!"


I don't know how else to say it to them.  I guess if they still refuse to listen, there's not a whole lot I can do, but I'd never get an animal from there if they so easily excuse such unacceptable behaviors.
 

This is the one:

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8322838

Have you sent the behaviorist pictures of your injuries yet? I really think you need to, ASAP. I'm furious at them on your behalf for essentially writing you off and not taking you seriously.

I'm sure she's seen them b/c I've been there twice since it happened and they're pretty obvious, now a rainbow color on my underarm.  The volunteer coordinators looked at them.  The problem is they are "just bruises" and I can't show them what really hurts (namely my lower back from Wally's weight on me, my finger and elbow joints from being bit hard and gnawed/tugged on, he got my hand really good but I wear thick leather gloves).  It seems like it would be bigger deal to them if he'd snapped me by accident and given me a little cut.  They need to see blood.  Putting clothes on/off is the worst b/c it's impossible to be careful and anytime I touch the bruise it feels like a "snake bite" (you know when your older sibling grabs your arm and twists it really hard in opposite directions).  But like I said in the recent e-mail, what if I was a 10 year old girl wearing a tank top?  I'm lucky it was a colder day and I had layers plus my jacket.  I guess if I were them, I wouldn't judge severity of a dog's behavior based on the physical damage inflicted.  I've been injured and bruised a lot worse, but let that go b/c it was a mistake that I made, like falling off a bike, carrying something too heavy, etc.

this is why i dont recommend people adopt from a shelter. this is a high stress area and a LOT of dogs are freaked and scared to death. they may not show their true colours until you get them home. ie... calm and quiet is really a maniac, and the maniac over there is really calm and quiet. it just depends on that particular animal's breaking point. some of them are in shock because their "pack" has just dumped then in the canine version of hell and the dog doesnt understand why.

i've seen dogs like Wally. they have no training. they're usually the ones that have been chained their whole life. my aunt had a black shepherd/lab female that was a complete psycho on or off leash. i went to visit my aunt (who lives three hours away) and saw that she had a dog... her grand kids wanted a puppy, you know the routine.. the dog was tied out back doing a very good job at being ignored. i felt bad for her, sad little fluffy black dog hiding in the weeds. as soon as i approached she launched herself in the air and turned into a crazy woman! she was lunging and leaping so hard her chain would yank her back and she would hit the dirt broad side! if you were brave enough (or maybe stupid is the right word) to get close enough to touch her, her paw would shoot out and she would literally GRAB you by the flesh of your arm and try to drag you closer! i had welts all over both arms from this dog. she was just a complete spazz and starving for love and attention. The kids were scared to death of her though.
I got permission to walk her, though i was warned it wouldnt be easy, so what. It took a while to get her to calm down, i had to practically sit on her, her heart was racing 90 miles an hour. she finally settled down enough to get the leash on her, once she realised she was not longer on a chain she proceeded to pull my arms out of their sockets!
The whole walk consisted of her belly crawling, not because she was scared, but because that was how she got the most traction to pull me where she wanted to go... i.e.. weight pulling pit bulls do this belly crawl too, and they pull hundreds of pounds, and i only weigh 120. If the dog wasnt pulling, she was jumping and clawing. and if she wasnt jumping and clawing then she was nipping and barking.

Before the visit was over my aunt told me i could have the dog. AND I WANTED HER!! this was before we got Kaydee... i told my husband about her over the phone, i could hear the look on his face like [>:][:'(][:@][>:] but mostly about my aunts treatment of the dog, not the fact that i wanted this dog. we didnt have a fence so i arranged that with my aunt, let us get prepared for the dog then we would bring her home.... well it didnt work out. my aunt shot the dog because it "attacked" her grand daughter. grand daughter at the time was only six years old. i dont know any of the details either. i dont know if the dog got loose, or the kid got too close. no one is talking. i have since this kid and she doesnt have any visible permanent scarring, so i dont know what the heck happened. All i know is this dog was one of a million more just like her and Wally probably is too. Who knows, he may not be one of the lucky few to be saved and see what its like to be a cherished family member. But i think if he was actually in a foster home as the only dog with someone who could spend their time with him, he may change and be a canine good citizen. If i lived closer by i would certainly take him on and do my best to help him in those areas. i hope someone does take a chance on him with a full understanding of his behaviour.