Back yard Breeders

ORIGINAL: Kodo


And as for the dogs in shelters, that's a pet peeve of mine too. They cry that millions of dogs are being put to sleep every year and yet adopting a dog from the local SPCA or rescue is almost as tough as adopting a human child! They deny a huge percentage of their applicants and then cry when the animals are put to sleep. Instead of looking for PERFECT homes, why don't we look for "good" homes and good people and get these dogs out of the shelter?

I'm a strong supporter of adopting rather than buying but I got tired of being put through the ringer.."you're too young" "you don't own your home" "your unmarried" etc....for gods sakes, I'm a single woman who makes good money and pays no rent...I can provide VERY well for my dogs but because I don't fit the "cookie cutter" image of the type of dog owner they are looking for, they denied me. Forget that I feed a top quality food, that I have excellent vet records on all my critters, and that being single and childless I have TONS of time to devote to them. None of that matters...well heck, no wonder the dogs are dying. They won't adopt them out to anybody!

 
I think some shelters don't adopt because of the reasons listed above is because those reasons have contributed to the dogs being put in the shelter in the first place. Young people tend to go through more life changes than older, more settled people.  People turn their dogs in all the time because they are moving or the place that they are renting does not allow animals. People also give up their dogs because the new bf/gf doesn't like the dog.  If I had a lot of dogs coming to me for those reasons I would probably try to minimize the likelihood of a dog going to a new home and getting turned in at a later date for one of those reasons.
 
Dogs are not dying because rescues and shelters won't adopt to people.  They are dying because of people's irresponsible actions.  It is unfair to make it seem like rescues and shelters are the cause of pet overpopulation.  Are the rescues and shelters dumping the dogs or is it irresponsible owners?
 
There are some places that make you jump through hoops to get their dogs and other places that don't.  I think I can go to animal control in my neighborhood and get a dog without much fuss.  The trade off is that I don't know anything about the dog's temperment or history.  Alternatively, I could go to a rescue where I may have to jump through some hoops, but I would be getting the benefits that come with getting a dog from a rescue (temperment testing, basic training etc). 

People buy from "BYBs" because $300 is a lot more reasonable for the average pocket book than $1000.

I was thinking more of the BYBs that charge $1000+ compared to the fine blooded working line German Shepherds (proper pedigrees, OFA, genetics testing) I've found for $500.  A while back when I was still looking into breeders I asked the GSD people what I should expect to pay and was told I could fine a great dog from a reputable breeder for $500.  My local pet stores with puppy mill puppies don't sell for anything less than $650.  Their non-registered BYB cats are $200!

I do agree that I'm not nearly as concerned with conformation titles and don't like that the puppies from conformation champions always seem to be 2-3 times as expensive than the working line dogs who are just as healthy and have just as good a parentage.

point is that as long as "reputable" breeders are charging outrageous prices

 
Outrageous to whom? To you? To me? to the guy over there? lol...
Your arguement might make sense if it weren't for the fact, that the MOST expensive place to buy a dog is a pet store....yet people do so...all.....the.....time.....
 
Kinda takes the wind outta the 'breeders charge too much'....and makes it more like 'breeders ask too many questions'....wouldn't you agree?

dlg, excellent post. Lot of good points made.
 
I

I also feed Innova, among other super premiums.  My dogs receive excellent health care as well.  And I do not breed.  My last litter of foster pups I was reimbursed $100 per pup ($600 total) for vaccines, which I do myself and food, for the pups and momma while she was here, and that was splitting the $200 adoption fee.  Please note that not ONE of these pups left home before 12 weeks.
 
Food, vaccine, collars, leads, gas for taking them into town to socialize them, and lets not forget my time......but, I wasn't doing it for money.
 
When I did breed, many years ago, I did all the testing, regular eye exams, etc, etc, etc.  I did NOT show, however, I was active in the breed club and did not breed until after TWO AKC judges who I had met through the breed club proclaimed my dogs "perfect" and urged me to breed them.  I had an excellent mentor.  I did NOT make a profit, even with NOT showing.  Back then, my show quality pups sold for $5-600 and my pet quality for $350-400.  When I factor in all the medical costs, including the testing, and the eyes that had to be cleared every six months, well, I too laugh at the idea of a profit.
 
And yep, I grilled folks who were taking my pups, whether they were "mine" or fosters.  I invested a ton of time, energy and love into those babies and I didn't want them coming back.  So I made darned sure that they were going to excellent, forever homes.  And my fosters were screened by the rescue FIRST and then me, and I had the final say.  Sorry if I didn't want the pups I'd raised in my home tied to a dog house for the rest of their lives.
 
I also work with the local HS...and yes, we DO find homes for our dogs, but those dogs go to homes that are going to love, cherish and treat them as they deserve to be treated.  Living in an apartment isn't an impediment so long as the COMMITMENT to the animal and its needs are there.

I think some shelters don't adopt because of the reasons listed above is because those reasons have contributed to the dogs being put in the shelter in the first place. Young people tend to go through more life changes than older, more settled people. People turn their dogs in all the time because they are moving or the place that they are renting does not allow animals. People also give up their dogs because the new bf/gf doesn't like the dog. If I had a lot of dogs coming to me for those reasons I would probably try to minimize the likelihood of a dog going to a new home and getting turned in at a later date for one of those reasons.

Dogs are not dying because rescues and shelters won't adopt to people. They are dying because of people's irresponsible actions. It is unfair to make it seem like rescues and shelters are the cause of pet overpopulation. Are the rescues and shelters dumping the dogs or is it irresponsible owners?

There are some places that make you jump through hoops to get their dogs and other places that don't. I think I can go to animal control in my neighborhood and get a dog without much fuss. The trade off is that I don't know anything about the dog's temperment or history. Alternatively, I could go to a rescue where I may have to jump through some hoops, but I would be getting the benefits that come with getting a dog from a rescue (temperment testing, basic training etc).

ORIGINAL: dlg81

I see what you're saying ,but these people don't listen to reason.

I don't own my own home because I live on my family's small farm which is paid off. The home I live in isn't in my name because my dad built it. But that doesn't count to them...I couldn't show them a deed or a rental agreement.

I've lived there for 9yrs, don't see any reason to move! I'm single because I got divorced 4 years ago at the age of 20. I may or may not ever remarry, but I can tell you one thing...I've told more than one man to hit the road if he didn't like my animals. Yet because I'm 24yrs old, they assume that  I'm some irresponsible nitwit that'll dump  her dog the first time some man says to.

I have a stable job in law enforcement that I have been at for 4yrs (most of my adult life) and have every intention of retiring from there. I make more money than most average middle class people who are paying rent and supporting families...I pay no rent or utillities bills and so I can spoil my babies plum rotten! But again, that doesn't count with the Humane Society. Despite the fact that I have a very stable work history and have lived at the same place for years which is PAID for, I'm still obviously irresponsible because I'm 24yrs old and unmarried.

Here's another one I heard, "you can't adopt from us, you're single and you work full time." Well gee, don't MOST adults work full time? I guess the fact that I have 2 other people living on the property who help care for the animals doesn't count because they're "just" my parents and not a spouse. Keep in mind between me and my two parents there is ALWAYS someone at home to care for the animals (mom works 1st shift, dad works 2nd, I work third). We have two separate houses but whoever is home is the one who gets to have all the critters at their place These animals are hardly ever alone.

I have NEVER "dumped" a dog in my life and I can't imagine that I ever would. I have had to find new homes for dogs I took in because they didn't work out for me personally (usually conflicts with my current dogs, etc) and in those cases, I took the time and energy to find a more appropriate home. I'm the lady who takes in every stray she finds, gets it healthy and finds it a good home to go to or keeps it...but again, none of that record matters because I'm "young and don't own my home".

Granted, shelters are full because of irresponsible people...but they could alleviate the problem by being a bit less picky and letting these dogs go to good homes.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

point is that as long as "reputable" breeders are charging outrageous prices

Outrageous to whom? To you? To me? to the guy over there? lol...
Your arguement might make sense if it weren't for the fact, that the MOST expensive place to buy a dog is a pet store....yet people do so...all.....the.....time.....
 
Kinda takes the wind outta the 'breeders charge too much'....and makes it more like 'breeders ask too many questions'....wouldn't you agree?

I don't know what pet stores charge for their puppies because I've never been in a store that sold puppies.

And frankly, I don't care how many questions they ask because I have references from reputable breeders in the show community and nothing to hide. Heck, they can come over and inspect my place from top to bottoms.

I'm not sure where you're getting all this about pet stores...I can't remember the last time I saw a pet store that sold puppies. All the ones I know of just do adoptions through the Human Society.

I don't think I know anyone who's ever bought from a pet store (that must be a big city thing...).....but I live in a rural community and Petsmart is all we have nearby. Everyone I know buys from local individuals and the average price of a registered puppy is $150-$350.

Ya....but none of what you said included words like;

she proves her dogs in the field or in the ring.
she doesn' t breed dogs until they have been OFAd/Penn Hipped, Cerfed, etc.

Paula

ORIGINAL: paulaedwina

Ya....but none of what you said included words like;

she proves her dogs in the field or in the ring.
she doesn' t breed dogs until they have been OFAd/Penn Hipped, Cerfed, etc.

Paula

I don't believe a dog needs to be proved "in the ring or the field." I don't think it makes an animal any better just because someone went out and showed them.

Some of the best working dogs I ever saw never left the ranch but they herd a goat like you wouldn't believe...some of the best lap dogs I ever saw never saw a confo ring but they had the sweetest personalities ever and isn't that what a lap dog is all about?

I did mention above that I believe in genetic testing very strongly. Ofa, CERF, etc.

I can see it from both ways, re. shelter adoptions.  For one, I work in a shelter and when you see how some of these dogs have been beaten and neglected, you get pretty protective of them!  But on the other side, I've had experiences similar to Kodo's when adopting cats.  When I got my Posh at 8 weeks old, I filled out like 8 pages of paperwork.  Seriously, I was audited last year and I had to provide more paperwork for adopting a cat than I did for my income tax audit!  They asked for references, which I happily gave, but then were not satisfied that I don't list my parents as a reference.  Why would I? My parents don't like cats and if my life fell through, I'd move in with my grandparents, not my parents, so I gave my grandma as a reference.  I listed all my landlord's info like the asked and even had the check stub for the pet fee I paid.  Finally I adopted the cat, but then they kept asking if I could check in or they could check up on me.  I said sure, anyone is welcome any time to come in my place and see how I care for my cats, but what does my dad's mortgage really have to do with it?

I know this is how it has to be, but it is frustrating.

Personally, I think home checks and requiring a vet reference are more important than a lot of the other info on the applications.

ORIGINAL: Kodo

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

point is that as long as "reputable" breeders are charging outrageous prices

Outrageous to whom? To you? To me? to the guy over there? lol...
Your arguement might make sense if it weren't for the fact, that the MOST expensive place to buy a dog is a pet store....yet people do so...all.....the.....time.....
 
Kinda takes the wind outta the 'breeders charge too much'....and makes it more like 'breeders ask too many questions'....wouldn't you agree?

I don't know what pet stores charge for their puppies because I've never been in a store that sold puppies.

And frankly, I don't care how many questions they ask because I have references from reputable breeders in the show community and nothing to hide. Heck, they can come over and inspect my place from top to bottoms.

I'm not sure where you're getting all this about pet stores...I can't remember the last time I saw a pet store that sold puppies. All the ones I know of just do adoptions through the Human Society.

I don't think I know anyone who's ever boutght from a pet store.....but I live in a rural community and Petsmart is all we have nearby. Everyone I know buys from local individuals and the average price of a regestiered puppy is $150-$350.

 
The dogs that I have seen listed in the paper are pretty close to the $150-$350 range for the more common breeds.  I don't live in a rural community, but pet stores are few and far in between.  The places I have seen with the most ridculous prices are on the internet.
 

I'm not sure where you're getting all this about pet stores...I can't remember the last time I saw a pet store that sold puppies. All the ones I know of just do adoptions through the Human Society.

There are several in my city that sell puppy mill puppies.  All they do is say "AKC registered" and they sell the dogs for no less than $650, non-registered but self-proclaimed purebred cats go for $200.  Disgusting.  I stop going to places when they start selling puppies.

but I live in a rural community and Petsmart is all we have nearby.

 
If you note the sticky message in this forum..it is about buying from a Pet store. Many posters come here wanting to know how to ut pet stores in their area out of business. the Hunte Corp is Petland's biggest supplier...you can google either for info. Petland is a BIG chain store. People also join this forum that have purchased pet store pups or are planning to and we've had many a convo about that too. It's real...trust me.
 
I don't live in a small town..but I do live in suburbia...there is a mall near me with puppies and kittens for sale...hardly an isolated phenomena...it is a real problem....and it is this outlet that many puppy mills and even BYB's cater to. Puppy mills in fact...would have a hard time existing without the pet store trade.
 
This is OT, if you would like to discuss the pet store puppy and the issues around that...I think another thread is best.
 
I will only say this...people buy pet store puppies...at least as often as they buy BYB pups...and many, MANY BYB's get their "stock" via pet stores because they ask no questions and sell on full registration or some off market registry that has no such thing as limited. 

ORIGINAL: Liesje

I can see it from both ways, re. shelter adoptions.  For one, I work in a shelter and when you see how some of these dogs have been beaten and neglected, you get pretty protective of them!  But on the other side, I've had experiences similar to Kodo's when adopting cats.  When I got my Posh at 8 weeks old, I filled out like 8 pages of paperwork.  Seriously, I was audited last year and I had to provide more paperwork for adopting a cat than I did for my income tax audit!  They asked for references, which I happily gave, but then were not satisfied that I don't list my parents as a reference.  Why would I? My parents don't like cats and if my life fell through, I'd move in with my grandparents, not my parents, so I gave my grandma as a reference.  I listed all my landlord's info like the asked and even had the check stub for the pet fee I paid.  Finally I adopted the cat, but then they kept asking if I could check in or they could check up on me.  I said sure, anyone is welcome any time to come in my place and see how I care for my cats, but what does my dad's mortgage really have to do with it?

I know this is how it has to be, but it is frustrating.

Personally, I think home checks and requiring a vet reference are more important than a lot of the other info on the applications.

Thank you Liesje, this is what I was getting at. Some of the stuff they ask is incredible and while I understand tryingto find good homes, I also feel alot of good homes get rejected for not meeting certain unreasonable expectations.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

but I live in a rural community and Petsmart is all we have nearby.

If you note the sticky message in this forum..it is about buying from a Pet store. Many posters come here wanting to know how to ut pet stores in their area out of business. the Hunte Corp is Petland's biggest supplier...you can google either for info. Petland is a BIG chain store. People also join this forum that have purchased pet store pups or are planning to and we've had many a convo about that too. It's real...trust me.
 
I don't live in a small town..but I do live in suburbia...there is a mall near me with puppies and kittens for sale...hardly an isolated phenomena...it is a real problem....and it is this outlet that many puppy mills and even BYB's cater to. Puppy mills in fact...would have a hard time existing without the pet store trade.
 
This is OT, if you would like to discuss the pet store puppy and the issues around that...I think another thread is best.
 
I will only say this...people buy pet store puppies...at least as often as they buy BYB pups...and many, MANY BYB's get their "stock" via pet stores because they ask no questions and sell on full registration or some off market registry that has no such thing as limited. 

Thank you for the info. I don't live that far from you (Parker county) and I have never personally walked into a store that sold puppies. I was just under the impression that that sort of thing wasn't terribly common anymore. I've seen Petlands before when I've driven into dallas and the HEB area of DFW but I never went inside one..thank you for the info, and if I'm ever over in that area, I will make sure not to shop there.

I always shop at Petsmart and they do adoptions through the shelter/humane society...no sales of puppies.

I certainly wouldn't trust to buy a puppy from a pet store...I prefer to buy from a small local breeder where I can see all their stock and health records. My whole argument on this thread is that just because you're a small breeder who doesn't show doesn't mean that you're irresponsible. I'd rather have a pup bred in the home/back yard than one bred in a kennel that's never been around people much.