Back yard Breeders

I think the idea behind confirmation showing is to get peer review of your dogs.  Someone (a judge) felt that your dog was a good specimen of the breed and therefore worthy of breeding.  That, plus health testing, plus being choosy with buyers makes a responsible breeder, IMO. 
 
But of course if I was buying a working border collie, for example or a hunting brittany spaniel, then I would be looking for other criteria in the parents, such as working ability and that would far outweigh a CH before their name.

Well, the breeder you got your fur-baby from was a more responsible breeder.  Backyard Breeders carelessly breed whichever dogs they can get their grubby hands on to make money. 

I do not breed dogs and never will.  I have no interest in that.  I will say though I do think the breeders should make a profit, take good care of the breeding dogs and the puppies.  I do not see the big deal if some one breeds their dogs once or twice and sells the pups whether they are pure bred or some poo-mix.  I like them both and paid about the same for my shih-tzu as I did for my Malti-poo and dont feel mis-led or slighted at all. 
 
I think there are too many test done for pregnant dogs.  Yes, some may be great and we should definatley take advantage of modern technology but for pete'sake they are having puppies and naturally I think it should just be left to that they, I think for the most part given the ability to give birth with out all the tests.

IMO a BYB is someone that breeds dogs without adhering strictly to all that make up a Reputable Breeder. With the possible exception of Confirmation. I do believe the dog should be proven though. It just depends on what the breed is. I have huskies and there are not too many mushers out there that run full blooded Siberian Huskies for example. BUT in order to reputably breed huskies you need to prove your dogs in harness.

My dogs came from a BYB. This was before Idog for me. She whelped her pups in the house but she was still very irresponsible. For instance she didn't even know that her dog could have pups sired by more than one dog in the same litter. She left her tied up outside while she was in heat, believing that since her males were on their own tie-outs, she would be fine. I think she's lucky she didn't end up with wolf puppies. She did no health testing. She wormed the puppies, but did not get their first immunizations, telling me that the vet advised her against it because the people that took the pups would not have the record...? Also I got Crusher at 6 weeks, and his brother Eclipse went home a week earlier than that. The only thing that saves her in my mind at all is that Nakita is a very good sled dog, as is Tundra, the sire.

ORIGINAL: Peace36

I do not breed dogs and never will.  I have no interest in that.  I will say though I do think the breeders should make a profit, take good care of the breeding dogs and the puppies.  I do not see the big deal if some one breeds their dogs once or twice and sells the pups whether they are pure bred or some poo-mix.  I like them both and paid about the same for my shih-tzu as I did for my Malti-poo and dont feel mis-led or slighted at all. 

I think there are too many test done for pregnant dogs.  Yes, some may be great and we should definatley take advantage of modern technology but for pete'sake they are having puppies and naturally I think it should just be left to that they, I think for the most part given the ability to give birth with out all the tests.

First of all the testing they do should be done BEFORE the dog is bred. The testing is to make sure that they have good hips, eyes, and whatever else the breed may be prone to, disease wise. A good breeder does not make a profit, and if they do its rare and very little. The money gets used up caring for their animals, proving their animals, vet care and such. Emergencies often eat up any profit that might have been made. If you are into breeding for the money you shouldn't be breeding. I think that is the general conscensus around here.

Isn't the "backyard breeder" a term or a label created by the "responsible breeder".  Anyway, this segregated group breds dogs and sells the puppies to the general public and helps meets the public demand, compensating for the lack of supply by the "responsible breeder".

Just a couple little points.....
 
First, since 99.9% of dogs have a heat cycle only every six months, it's gonna be really tough to have 3 litters in any given year.
 
Second, the tests are supposed to be done BEFORE momma is pregnant, and done on BOTH parents.  These tests are for genetic problems common in that breed....the purpose being NOT to breed two GSD's with poor hips because by doing so you increase the liklihood of the PUPS having bad hips.  HD is not always apparent at a real young age...sometimes not showing symptons until the dogs are older.  And HD can be pretty awful for the dog.
 
The problem with having "a litter or two to make some money" is that unless one is doing it responsibly, with all the testing, and some sort of confirmation that the dogs actually meet breed standards and SHOULD be bred, a whole bunch of pet quality dogs are created, and, sorry to say, there are PLENTY of those dying in shelters each and every day.  Breeders, those who do everything correctly, don't often "make a profit".
 
If you really believe that it's ok to just make pups at random, PLEASE go volunteer at your local shelter for a few weeks.  I think you'll change your mind.

Peace, if you want breeders to make a profit, you should offer to pay them twice as much for your dogs.  They don't get to decide the costs of properly testing for health problems and genetic testing, providing nutrition, keeping up with vaccinations and routine things, and all the unexpected emergencies that can arise.  I'm sure respectable breeders wouldn't turn down some extra dough!  BYBs can make a profit because they skimp on testing, nutrition, and health care.

I think I fall in the grey area on this subject...I have shown conformation and have respect for the ring, but I'd rather by a working dog over a show champ any day.A dog that has excelled in herding, obedience, etc is worth a heck of alot more to me because it proves something about the animals mind and intelligence. If I was buying a herding dog for example, I'd buy one with less than perfect confo and no special pedigree if it came off a working ranch...I simply find that more valuable. I don't care how pretty a Pyrenees is...I want to know if he can work goats.

To me, being a responsible breeder is about seeing to the health of your animals (both the parents and the babies) and making sure you breed good-tempered animals  with no defects health-wise. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't always go for dogs that match the breed standard....*gasp*.

I have two chihuahuas bought from "back yard breeders" who are the sweetest tempered chihuahuas I've never see, healthy, happy, and BEAUTIFUL. The kennels they came from were clean, reputable, and responsible in my opinion. Do they match the breed standard? Thank god, no. "Show ring" chihuahuas are not attractive to me in the slightest. I actually think the "lower quality" ones are more attractive. Are they from a long line of show champions? No. The conformation ring doesn't test for temperment in any significant way and therefore really isn't worth much to me.

I'm not a huge proponent of "only buy from show champions." I'd much rather buy an intelligent animal that is healthy and has had his temperment proven in some form.

That said, I definately support genetic testing, temperment testing, not over breeding, not breeding too young, etc.

BYBs can make a profit because they skimp on testing, nutrition, and health care.

Having been around the dog world, and owning 8 dogs myself I can tell you that even feeding an expensive food (innova) and having all my animals given top notch health care, I can't imagine how I could justify charging 1000-2000 dollar per pup on a litter of 4-8 pups. I don't know WHAT these responsible breeders are doing that is costing them that much money.

People buy from "BYBs" because $300 is a lot more reasonable for the average pocket book than $1000.

If the responsible breeders are so concerned about doing away with BYBs they need to lower their prices to something the average person can afford. It does NOT cost 1000 dollars per pup to provide proper nutrition and health care..that's ridiculous.  Even if you average in costs of OFA exams and eye exams, you still can't justify a cost like that....

And as for the dogs in shelters, that's a pet peeve of mine too. They cry that millions of dogs are being put to sleep every year and yet adopting a dog from the local SPCA or rescue is almost as tough as adopting a human child! They deny a huge percentage of their applicants and then cry when the animals are put to sleep. Instead of looking for PERFECT homes, why don't we look for "good" homes and good people and get these dogs out of the shelter?

I'm a strong supporter of adopting rather than buying but I got tired of being put through the ringer.."you're too young" "you don't own your home" "your unmarried" etc....for gods sakes, I'm a single woman who makes good money and pays no rent...I can provide VERY well for my dogs but because I don't fit the "cookie cutter" image of the type of dog owner they are looking for, they denied me. Forget that I feed a top quality food, that I have excellent vet records on all my critters, and that being single and childless I have TONS of time to devote to them. None of that matters...well heck, no wonder the dogs are dying. They won't adopt them out to anybody!

Kodo...you are generalizing. Price varies GREATLY depending on the breed. You can buy a finished Beagle CHAMPION for the price you mention....pet pups are MUCH less than that figure. I wouldn't, however...expect a Leonberger breeder or one who has dogs nationally ranked every year...to charge less than that tho.
 
Many factors go into the cost of a pup...not just your idea of "reasonable expenses". Showing one bitch to her Ch can cost $3000 and that is on the low side...if she has a litter of 4 and you charge $800 per pup that still leaves you with a whole $200 profit..ooops..forgot about the testing and progesterone testing and stud fee...

I've seen a lot more "designer" "BYB" dogs selling for >$1000 than I have from "reputable breeders."

My Sheltie, who came from some pretty nice show lines but was too big, was $500. I think my papillon was maybe $700, also from a show breeder, and there aren't very many papillon breeders in CA.

If you look at a site like nextdaypets.com, which is arguably filled with very non-reputable breeders, you'll find many purebreds or "designer" mixes listed for far more than that. (Examples: on the front page, English Bulldog pups for $2000, "Teacup Shorkie" [:@] for $2,250, "Teacup" Chihuahua for $1,000.)

I don't mean to question your experience, Kodo, but I think you've had some bad luck with breeders. BYBs don't necessarily charge less for their dogs than their "responsible" counterparts, who typically spend more on things like genetic testing.

And while the "responsible breeders" argument tends to lean towards people who show dogs, since that's more common, IMO at least "proving stock" before breeding means proving its working ability as well. I think most of the people here would agree that dogs that have proven themselves skilled in herding, obedience, agility, etc. have earned their right to be considered for "breeding quality" status.

ORIGINAL: rwbeagles

Kodo...you are generalizing. Price varies GREATLY depending on the breed. You can buy a finished Beagle CHAMPION for the price you mention....pet pups are MUCH less than that figure. I wouldn't, however...expect a Leonberger breeder or one who has dogs nationally ranked every year...to charge less than that tho.
 
Many factors go into the cost of a pup...not just your idea of "reasonable expenses". Showing one bitch to her Ch can cost $3000 and that is on the low side...if she has a litter of 4 and you charge $800 per pup that still leaves you with a whole $200 profit..ooops..forgot about the testing and progesterone testing and stud fee...

I showed my american eskimo stud to his championship for less than $500. Granted if you're running off on a national campaign you can rack up tons of expenses but is that really necessary?

My eskie stud was very high quality (he showed at westminster this year, Ch. Kort-Mars Sparkling Diamond). Yet I never had to spend anywhere near $3000 when I was showing him. His new owners are spending tons of money on him taking him to big shows because they want to...but he earned his championship a long time ago!

You can find exceptions if you want to Kodo...point is doing something to prove your stock costs money, how much money will depend on breed, and region, and many other things...and money from a litter if any is leftover (haha still laughing at that) reinvested in the dogs when you deal with a reputable breeder...probably a big screen TV when you deal with a BYB.

I don't mean to question your experience, Kodo, but I think you've had some bad luck with breeders. BYBs don't necessarily charge less for their dogs than their "responsible" counterparts, who typically spend more on things like genetic testing.

I know I paid a whole lot less for my BYB dogs than I did for my show stud. I have 3 chihuahuas..one was $100, one was $350, and one was $150....all of them beautiful and healthy. My sheltie was $350, a little on the big side and his ears didn't tip properly but still a beautiful, healthy animal with a great temperment. The other 4 I have right now are a border collie cross, a pom cross, a GSD cross, and a boxer/gsd cross, all of them "throwaway" dogs that I took in.

I have to say, all 8 of the dogs I have now have a far better and less neurotic personality than my champion eskie did. He was gorgeous, but I really felt his personality left something to be desired (the reason I sold him and never bred him myself)...yet he's got all those letters in front of his name, and now his westminster credentials and you can bet his pups are selling good! *shakes head*

I certainly am against "designer dogs" and I can't believe people are charging such outrageous prices for them. I have 4 mutts but I considered 3 of the 4 to be rescue cases.

My point is that showing a dog doesn't make you a responsible breeder...and not having shown your dogs doesn't make you an irresponsible one. My other point is that as long as "reputable" breeders are charging outrageous prices, people are going to continue going to BYBs. I would never buy from a kennel that I felt did not properly see to the health and happiness of it's animals..but I have no problem buying from a small breeder who may only one 1 or 2 breeding pairs and does what he's doing as a hobby. I don't expect my pets to have champion pedigrees or credentials...I just want happy and healthy animals.

The folks I bought my chi's from had very clean facilities, raised the animals in the house with love, fed good food and from what records I saw seemed to provide good health care. But by some people's standards they are "BYB"s because they're dogs didn't have titles or perfect confo. I have an issue with that.