How long will the hybrid craze last?

I actually wrote a piece about designer dogs and dispelled some of the myths behind them. Clicky [linkhttp://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=124633686&blogID=220266737&MyToken=e24883f6-a01b-4384-8300-578d0492936a]here[/link] to check it out.

WARNING: Long freakin rant ahead - Proceed with Caution

First let me say this is all my own opinion built upon my own research and personal experience with dogs..
Condemn me all you want for my own personal opinions, doesnt bother me much. But i prefer to be respected for having my own opinions just as i respect others for having theirs. I only say this because i have been to other forums that got NASTY because someone spoke their mind. Just like that girl who was happy to finally own a dog, i've seen other inocent people get ripped to pieces by  people who  wanted to be ugly.

ok no such thing as a hypoallergenic mammal, ESPECIALLY a dog...... that's not even close to living in reality.
If blind people with allergies need a dog that doesnt shed as much then why not just train a poodle to lead the blind? why mix it?
Also, all breeds are mutts. mutts are not a bad thing. in my mind, pure breds are a bad thing.... but truth be known, i hate the AKC and other clubs like it with a vehement passion because it has RUINED and STILL ruining many breeds.

 Irish Setters, Irish Wolfhounds, English Bulldogs, Mastiffs, German Shepherds, Chihauhuas, Boston Terriers..... ok i dont want to type the whole bloody registry.... but those breeds are the most maligned when it comes to health issues.

The Irish Wolfhound was a breed that should have slipped gracefully into extinction. I'm sorry but i am realist. In their efforts to "preserve" this breed they ruined it AND tainted its blood with great dane and scottish deerhound. when they finally got their outcrossings to breed "true to type" they began the OTHER reason why i hate closed registries... they started breeding only to those dogs.. which ultimately is something we call INBREEDING!! These days most IWs are lucky to live past the age of five... they run the risk of bone cancer, bloat, hip/elbow/skin/eye problems, etc etc. I've seen hampsters outlive most IWs....

Boston Terriers, English Bulldogs,  Mastiffs and Chihuahuas are for the most part unable to give natural birth. Boston Terrier's are "America's First Registered Mutt" in my little ole humble opinion.... i love them, they're cute as can be, but they're still registered mutts that cant have natural birth. that is my only complaint about them as i dont really know much about the breed. but if modern science ever goes away then these breeds will be on the list for extinct breeds.

German Shepherds started out as a good idea.... wolf outcrossings with herding dogs.. clever, yes. A wolf's natural ability to control a herd with just one look, he's strong enough to take on a full grown ram head to head, he's also like most other german breeds, suited do almost any other job out there..... but Function  gave way to Fashion.... now he  has that hideous roached back, bad hips, bad temper(in the wrong hands, yes, but not always. i've seen some REALLY psychotic GSDs that even profesionals couldnt fix) and any other health problem that effects most other pure breds. People are finally getting a clue and the sloping hips arent as popular but the damage has been done.

Dont even get me started on the English Bulldog.... You wanna talk about DESIGNER DOGS?! [sm=soap%20box.gif]

Now, I might be over stepping my bounds here, you guys dont know me all that well yet, but i am one of those individuals that believes a dog needs a purpose in life. EVERY dog. When you get down to the bare metal of the issue you soon realise that a dog is just another tool invented by man to get a job done. Honestly people dont need dogs anymore because we are more advanced in a lot of things - though S&R is still pretty important and people have yet to come up with an arteficial sniffer... that i know of. But any job a dog does has already been replaced. We have home security systems with alarms and dispatchers that supposedly respond emediately, we have mace, tazers, and hand guns for personal protection, and most people dont need to hunt because we have supermarkets, and the livestock doesnt need herding anymore because everything is factory farmed. But people still want to keep the dog around as a companion. What REALLY makes me angry is people getting a dog, then another dog, and then another, and then they either kennel them or chain them up. they ignore them except to throw some food and water at them. yell at them when they bark, yell at them when they dig, yell at them when they get excited and jump on people, then they yell at them because someone broke into the house, the dog didnt bark, didnt protect anyone, and ran and hid until the ordeal was over. Why have a dog if you're going to treat it that way? People like that should not even bring a gold fish into their life, let alone a dog!
I like working dogs a lot, i own working dogs, and have always owned working dogs. mine dont have titles and champion bloodlines, but to me, my dogs are champs all by themselves. I know that even though Kaydee is down in her legs that she still can and WILL lay down her life to protect me and my family. I live in a very remote area filled with bears, wild hogs, feral dogs, coyotes, bob cats, and vagrants. I want a dog smart enough to know when to be protective and when to accept what i accept. I know there are several breeds or individual dogs out there that can do that, but so far the American Bulldog is the only CONSISTANT dog i have ever found. I own three... they're all the same. My grand parents owned several and they all were the same. They know their job and they do it. You havent lived until you've seen your dog do a head count to make sure all the kids are safe.

Also - No i dont like designer breeds.... not even a little bit. BUT I DO LIKE IMPROVING UNHEALTHY DOGS!!!
The purpose of a dog show/club/registry is to keep track of history. I dont like people slinging the term "Mutt" around like its an insult. I dont care if you a labradoodle or a cockadoodle... Does it have a purpose? Can it hunt birds better than its predessors? Is it healthy? Is it stable minded? I personally wouldnt care if the AKC fell apart tomorrow and every dog was allowed interbred with each other.
Before there were dog clubs and "fanciers" dogs had jobs. there was a certain amount of natural selection in those jobs. i know a lot about history, and i dont remember ever reading about pet over population in any of my history books.
Also, just because a dog is a certain breed doesnt mean it cant do ANY job. My grandad had an Airdale that could hunt racoons, pheasant, deer, squirrels, and track wounded game in the field, not to mention he was a beloved family member. My grandad also trained my grandmother's pet chihuahua to track and retrieve squirrels. He wasnt a breeder of dogs for a profit but when his dogs did have puppies he made sure they had jobs. To get a dog from that man was like recieving a luxery car.. didnt matter what breed or mix it was.


Anyways "designer dogs" are not a fad... they've always existed. thats why we have miniature poodles, miniature pinschers, miniature schnauzers, Alaskan Huskies, Dobermans, Bull Mastiffs, JTRs and other such popular mutts.
Yeah they have been breeding "true to type" for for several years,some of them hundreds, but they were still mutts that finally got themselves accepted into another dog club.
Honestly if my American Bulldogs ever end up in the AKC i dont think i'll ever own another dog again.... i'll just remember fondly how i used to have the perfect dog....
-end rant

I thnk it is strange and odd that the mixed dogs are going for so much-- so be it. I guess people pay for what they want.

They pay for what they think that they want, but many don't understand what they are going to get.  They may think a goldendoodle will be a sweet dog with a poodle coat, but there is no guarantee of that. 
 
They also may believe that they are going to get the so-called "hybrid vigor".  However, you can't just put together any two purebred dogs and get any improvement in genetic health.  That requires
(1)  a well-bred sire and dam with no health problems and
(2)  two breeds that have no recessive health traits in common.
 
Most careful breeders of #1 (above) won't put their dogs in a mixed-breed breeding situation! 

April is also, what I guess, you call a designer dog, I knew nothing about that at all when I bought her for 350.00, I'd have paid anything for her I wanted her so bad.  She had been picked by the breeder to keep, (she is a friend of mine) but finally she let me have her.  Would I do it again? you bet!  She is a Pekitese. lol[]

DumDog....while I can appreciate some of the points of your post....your logic is pretty much flawed by the fact that all the breeds you mention and original foundations of the more fluff breeds...were developed for a very serious purpose, and developed using the very best examples available.
 
This basic premise is in most cases totally absent, completely totally absent, from Designer dog breeding today...which is motivated by money 95%-99% of the time, and using very inferior and untested (healthwise) stock. That in my opinion is a very good and sound reason NOT to compare it any way...to the development of an existant breed of dog, which has nothing to do with a club and everything to do with purpose, consistency, commitment and unification of the people behind it, and genetics.

ETA: I do agree that we should be focusing on improving the 200+ breeds already in existence...and not making more off shoots of those breeds that will simply spread flawed genetics around further until no dogs exist without carrying them. Won't that  make breeding tricky down the road!

I do believe that so much inbreeding has caused a lot of health problems in dogs. You can't dispute that fact - well you can try but you are wasting your energy. Fortunately, there are some people who are concerned about the health of their dogs so they are careful about who they breed them to. On the other hand, there will alway be back yard breeders, dogs who get loose and mate, "respectable" breeders who still have unexpected consequences, etc. It's a fact of life. So, honestly I don't see a reason to get all worked up over breed of dogs or mutts or designer dogs, etc. There's bigger things in life to get upset about.
 
If someone wants to cross a pure bred poodle with a pure bred lab, more power to them. They aren't hurting me, or my dog...or any future dog I'll own.  And *maybe* we'll end up with some really good dog traits down the road. Afterall this is how pure bred dogs were made to begin with.

I am not sure how I feel about hybrids.. in some cases I think its ridiculous like the fact that there is a name for everypossible cross out there.. i found that my boy a (75% blue heeler 25%border collie) is a cattle collie, please he is a mutt love him to pieces but he's a mutt! and a lot of the cockapoos, doodles and etc, etc all look different there is no standard.. now someone (forget who, to credit sorry) mention that all/most breeds started by mixing one in particular I can think of is a Bichon (which was made by combining a Maltese and a Poodle) some one came to where I work with their MaltiPoo, hello!! Bichon!!.. anyway my point (i think I have one?) is that these breeders worked for years to come up with a standard and they all pretty much look the same.. I dont think the hybrids of today should be sold for $1000 until they all come up with a standard, I have nothing against these dogs they are all dogs and thats all that matters to me, big small prick ears flop ears long hair short hair.. their all the best!!
 

Myth...inbreeding "causes" problems. Inbreeding can only more easily and readily show both good and bad genes present in the animals you breed. Inbreeding cannot "cause" an eye problem if the genetics for the problem are not already present in some form in the dogs or people...you breed. []
 
If someone wants to cross a Poodle and Lab...that may not hurt your dogs...but it does hurt dogs, going by the amount of this mix being turned into shelters and being re homed right now...and that I have a problem with.
 
Just about no purebred dog was developed from only two breeds. You need at least 3 and many times more than that. This is something the 'poo' folks cannot seem to grasp...
 
This has been discussed just about the death on this forum...and the same old arguements for and against come up...my feeling is that it will go the way of other trends...like Swatches and Troll dolls...going by the numbers of DD's being surrendered to shelters...it's already happening. I think they've moved on to cats,  now.

now someone (forget who, to credit sorry) mention that all/most breeds started by mixing one in particular I can think of is a Bichon (which was made by combining a Maltese and a Poodle) some one came to where I work with their MaltiPoo, hello!! Bichon!!..

 
mama....Bichon history blurb from the Bichon club's website , they've been a breed unto themselves since about 1400, so I think that pretty much negates any "DD" ness about them lol! bit more went in, than a 1st gen cross []
 
"The Bichon Frise is of Mediterranean ancestry.  His oldest ancestor is the Barbet, or Water Spaniel, from which the name Barbichon cam, later shortened to Bichon.  Also descended from the Barbet are the Caniche, or Poodle, and the Maltese.  They have certain similarities because of their common ancestry, but each long ago became a separate breed."

ORIGINAL: DumDog


Boston Terriers, English Bulldogs,  Mastiffs and Chihuahuas are for the most part unable to give natural birth. Boston Terrier's are "America's First Registered Mutt" in my little ole humble opinion.... i love them, they're cute as can be, but they're still registered mutts that cant have natural birth. that is my only complaint about them as i dont really know much about the breed. but if modern science ever goes away then these breeds will be on the list for extinct breeds.

 
Actually, it took about 30 years of breeding the Boston Terrier(which is a mix of Bulldog, French Bulldog, White English Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier/American Pit Bull, maybe some Boxer, and various "bull" and "terrier" types) before the AKC would grant it recognition. By the time they were recognized, you could hardly call them "mutts". They were breeding true to type for several years. I'm sorry but you can't compare that to designer dogs, some of which have been around since the 1960's and are still not breeding true to type nor are remotely close to being recognized as a true breed by any reputable kennel club.
 
Boston Terriers can and do free whelp. The reason a lot of them don't free whelp is due to uterine inertia and the fact that breeders aren't willing to risk the lives of the dam and ups to see if she can free whelp.
 
 

Being that I am heavily involved in rescue, I do have an issue with designer dogs. My opinion is that you can find a Pikatese in any shelter in the country, yes, you can find puppies of said mix as well. The truth is the people who are buying “designer dogs” are buying glorified mutts, dogs you could easily pick up at the shelter. In my area, we have an 80% euthanasia rate, that means 80% of the pets who come into the shelter are euthanized due to lack of space so I will never be okay with “designer dogs” until there are no more shelter animals left.
 
Another problem I have is the irresponsibility of these “Designer breeders”. They care about one thing and one thing only, that is money. If their dogs end up in a shelter (their puppies), do you think they would honestly go & bail said dog out? Nope. They have gotten their $ and that is all they wanted.
 
I feel like these people are taking advantage of the people who want a “designer dog”. They convince these naive people that “these dogs are special, they aren#%92t like the mutts at the pound” but I wonder what the difference is? Everyone who has an “oops” litter now charges $300+ for a puppy out of it and they call it a Boxerdoodle or a Beagleman. Sorry but for those of you who have spend money on these dogs, you are seriously getting ripped off.
 
Why in the world would you pay $350 for a mutt?? I could have gotten you one for $200 and that would have included a flight to get the dog TO YOU. The dog would have also been sterilized, up to date on shots, and HW negative, it would also have a guarantee that says we will take said dog back if you ever don#%92t want it, no matter how dumb the reason is. If the dog has a health problem that you don#%92t want to deal with, give the dog back to us, we will pay for all the vetting of said dog. We stand behind our dogs and we are a RESCUE. I have yet to see any “designer breeder” stand behind their dogs. I actually saw a show the other day (one of those court shows) and it had a “Designer breeder” who was being sued. The “designer breeder” (and I use the term “Breeder” very loosely) actually said “I do not take dogs back period, but I felt sorry for this lady so I did”. This “breeder” would have let that poor dog, who she bred, sit at the dam- shelter and rot away while this uncaring lady counts her money. The only reason she took the dog back was because the ladies daughter was scared of the dog & the breeder felt bad for the mom. Oh, yeah and said breeder also told the judge “I ADOPTED the dog out”. Adopted my as-. Adopting is a very scared word but I see poor quality breeders using it all of the time now.
 
THAT is why I don#%92t like designer breeders.
 
A WELL BRED pure bred is the healthiest dog you will ever find. And the cool thing about is if the responsible pure bred breeder (there is no such thing as a responsible “designer breeder” but that is a different topic) finds out something like there is some disease in their lines, they call EVERYONE who ever bought a puppy from them and let them know so the person can keep an eye out for any symptoms. And said responsible breeder will take the dog back at any time. I cant tell you the compassion these people have for the dogs they have bred & for the breed in general. The hardest working Dalmatian rescuer is also a responsible breeder. A lot of breeders (such as Gina) also rescue their breed. I have yet to see any “designer breeder” do that, they actually wont even go to the shelter and claim their own dogs (puppies they have bred).  
 
But if you stick Fido the Beagle in with Fluffy the Poodle, with neither Fido or Fluffy being health tested, I would say there is a pretty good chance you could end up with some serious health problems. Fido could have any disease that beagles are known for and that will PASS ON even though they aren#%92t pure bred puppies.
 
I guess people don#%92t understand these “designer breeders” want money; they don#%92t want to better anything or make sure anything is healthy; they are scammers as far as I am concerned. I again will never understand why you would pay that much for a mutt when you can go to the shelter and buy the same dog for a lot less & the dog will be sterilized, up to date on shots, HW negative, plus the shelter will take said dog back at any time (even shelters have this policy, sad that these “designer breeders” don#%92t, but that tells you about their character).
 
But in answer to the question asked I hope it ends SOON. “Designer breeders” are also notoriously known to dump any puppies who don#%92t sell at the shelter. Not too long ago, there was a “breeder” who dumped 72 dogs at his local shelter because he wasn#%92t making any money. From what I have heard from other places, this is common practice. I thank the lucky stars we havent seen that many at once, just a couple "who didnt sell" here & there.
 

ORIGINAL: Jewlieee

If someone wants to cross a pure bred poodle with a pure bred lab, more power to them. They aren't hurting me, or my dog...or any future dog I'll own.  And *maybe* we'll end up with some really good dog traits down the road. Afterall this is how pure bred dogs were made to begin with.

I suppose if all I cared about were my own dogs and the ones I will eventually own, I would't be in this conversation. But sooooo many of these dogs end up in shelters or worse, that I think it is very sad. Plus because so many people breeding them and selling them to unknowing folk,many other dogs die in shelters who may have had a chance to be adopted. Think what would have happened if Paris Hilton had adopted from her local HS instead?

Yes it#%92s true that every breed were mutts at one time. Difference between those breeds & “designer dogs” is those breeds were bred for a purpose and people bred them TO THE STANDARD. They have no set standard or purpose even for the Labrador/poodle mix which is the most popular. And the “breeders” don#%92t care to set a standard because they have no interest in making the dog fit in any reputable registry, they only care about having that money in their pocket. They won#%92t take the time to improve & figure out what this Labrador x poodle cross should look/act like…And you cant have a breed if you have no standards. The Labrador x poodle mixes, as well as the golden x poodle mixes I have seen don#%92t look anything alike. Even the ones from the same "breeder". That#%92s the whole point in having a breed, you set a standard for the way the dog should look/act/move, then you work your butt off trying to accomplish that. Not just throw Fido & Fluffy in together and hope for the best..

ORIGINAL: meilani


Boston Terriers can and do free whelp. The reason a lot of them don't free whelp is due to uterine inertia and the fact that breeders aren't willing to risk the lives of the dam and ups to see if she can free whelp.

But thats what i'm talking about. what the heck is uterine inertia? i've heard of infections of the uterus in dogs, no matter what breed, but never heard of this. just like a lot of the diseases you hear about today.. did they even really exist pre-1800s? (thats when dog shows and closed registries came about) i'm sure they existed, but i dont think they were as rampant as they are today. Like i said, natural selection weeded out the weaker animals. if they couldnt reproduce and give birth the way God intended then those animals didnt pass on their genes. And who ever decided it was a bright idea to AI females that wouldnt stand for a male should be shot. Again i mention one of my cousins. she has to HOLD the female chihuahua to get her to breed with the male.. this is the one that has only had one puppy out of four breedings to survive.

DumDog....while I can appreciate some of the points of your post....your logic is pretty much flawed by the fact that all the breeds you mention and original foundations of the more fluff breeds...were developed for a very serious purpose, and developed using the very best examples available.
 
This basic premise is in most cases totally absent, completely totally absent, from Designer dog breeding today...which is motivated by money 95%-99% of the time, and using very inferior and untested (healthwise) stock. That in my opinion is a very good and sound reason NOT to compare it any way...to the development of an existant breed of dog, which has nothing to do with a club and everything to do with purpose, consistency, commitment and unification of the people behind it, and genetics.

ETA: I do agree that we should be focusing on improving the 200+ breeds already in existence...and not making more off shoots of those breeds that will simply spread flawed genetics around further until no dogs exist without carrying them. Won't that  make breeding tricky down the road!

If i made the impression that i thought DDs were replacing or doing a better job than breeds that already exist then the mistake is mine. My thoughts are only that i dont see a purpose for breeds at all. Yeah you kinda get some predictability, but thats a gamble with any and all breeds. It depends on the individual personality as well as its training, as well as its genetics.
Its my opinion that the best breeds are the primitive breeds. the ones untouched by any club or registry. they live and thrive in their native countries. they hunt, the protect, they guard and they're prized by their owners. Which is another issue. I dont blame breeders for over population of pets. NOPE! I blame the fact that we have become a throw-away society. Most people lack the ambition to finish what they set out to do, which is why dogs end up in the pound in the first place. "Well he's just too much for me to handle, he's uncontrolable and untrainable!" Thats also why breeders dont have consistancy with these DDs. They didnt have a plan to start with!!
When i was a kid i wanted to create my own breed of dog.... something like a super dog, could hunt, guard, protect, play with kids, interact with strange people but not exactly leap into the arms of a stranger.... yeah i know several of you are naming off different breeds that do all of those things, but hey, i was a kid lol
Because i wanted to "create" my own breed i started reading about the different breeds that already existed.... read the history, and about their personalities, that eventually lead to some studying about genetics and all the stuff that most people need to know before they breed anything.. i was just a kid researching this stuff.... And i probably knew THEN more than what most breeders know as adults.
They dont seem to understand that it takes more than one male and one female.... these people have the same mindset as the guy with the box full of puppies at the grocery store. Many people dont know that you cant expect consistant results if you cross .. say a Pit bull and a Neapolitan Mastiff (aka Ban Dogge) The first generation is going to look pretty wacky! you'll get pups looking like one parent or the other as well as pups looking like both. So then you're supposed to decide which one you like and start there....
One crazy accidental breeding i saw once (my boss's australian shepherd/pit bull female X his friend's Doberman Pinscher) The pups from THAT unlikely union were pretty funky. One was solid white.... some were marked like a doberman but with brindling in the tan places. Some had tails, some had no tails, some had half tails. the puppy i chose (no i didnt pay for him) had a tail like a question mark. he also had two extra dew claws on his back feet, and he looked like a Harrier... saddle backed and tan and very compact and muscular. his other sibs were lanky, or short, big heads, or long snouts, it was just sooooo weird.. none of them looked related. And this female had several litters from that doberman..
I know he found homes for some of the puppies, i dont even want to know what happened to the others. my boss was a real redneck so knowing him he probably took them to a local garbage dump and turned them loose.
My dog, even though he was a mutt, had loads of potential. He had a natural herding ability, i could point at my horse in the pasture - who didnt like to be ridden and would run away at the sight of me - and Franky would go charging after him and bring him to the barn. Franky also intercepted an aggressive dog that was going for my leg.... I was helping someone move furniture and that stupid dog waited until i had an armful of sofa to try to attack me... But Franky had enough brains to know what to do. I was impressed with him.. but would i want to go around mixing dobies, aussies and pits and give them a cute name? Noooo way!!

If anything i would like to see people dump the idea of creating new breeds, and as you said, try to improve the ones we already have. I think people are enamoured with the idea of mixing two unlikely breeds (Dalmation and Japanese Chin) and then giving it a funny name. They dont care about the genetics. They just want to see what such a mix would look like!
 like i said before, registries exist to preserve history. Any dog can do any job if they have the right trainer and the mind for it. i mean, i've seen Papillions herding sheep on Animal Planet... why not? it might be dangerous for the dog however... but he was darn sure herding him some sheep!

To be honest, i'm glad that we can still own dogs at all, but there are people out there trying to end this as we speak. in some countries its an ordeal just to get a mutt. and its EXPENSIVE! We're lucky we can pay $50 and get a pound puppy.. When i was at the last dog show i picked up a piece of reading about more than just BSL - the end of dog ownership as we know it. but thats for another time..

what the heck is uterine inertia?

It is failure to contract or produce meaningful, purposeful contractions or sustain them long enough to whelp all the pups...and it's causes are many and varied...from genetic, to environmental, to diet.
 
In the same way many women opt for elective c sections for convenience...some breeders do the same. They may do it because they fear what "may" happen..or because the bitch is extremely valuable to them, or they are simply not putting repro vigor high on their list. Not everyone does...in EVERY breed. ANY bitch can have inertia....and it's a tossup as to why...she can have it one litter and with dietary tweaking or better educated midewife NOT have it the next time.
 
One BIG cause of uterine interia is the age old belief that bitches should be put on calcium supplements or puppy kibble during pregnancy...the reasons behind this are pretty complex and I won't go totally OT discussing it. If you are interested tho I would be happy to explain it in the "Breeding" area of the forum.
 
ETA: It is also a mistake, IMO to tar purebred dogs or dog breeding with a wide brush. Your cousin is not representative of my breeding ethics nor those of many, many other people I know in dogs...nor I or they, hers. Breeders are people...and all people differ in their moral compasses and ethics when it comes to their dogs.