So I was shopping for dog food.... and can't keep my mouth shut!

Also OT, but a friend of mine who has a snake says that feeding frozen is inhumane, as many have frozen blood coming out their nose/ears/eyes, and that the frozen feeders are simply killed by smashing their heads against something.
 
She also says that the snake (at least in her case, I believe she has a python or some sort of constrictor) squeezes the prey animal until it passes out and from there it simply suffocates.  She won't feed frozen because of the cruel way the feeders are killed.

Also OT, but a friend of mine who has a snake says that feeding frozen is inhumane, as many have frozen blood coming out their nose/ears/eyes, and that the frozen feeders are simply killed by smashing their heads against something.

She also says that the snake (at least in her case, I believe she has a python or some sort of constrictor) squeezes the prey animal until it passes out and from there it simply suffocates.  She won't feed frozen because of the cruel way the feeders are killed.

 
Er, some smaller pet stores who kill and freeze their own feeders may use blunt force trauma- and that IS inhumane, and in many places, also illegal. All of the larger, more reptuable sources for frozen feeders (places like [linkhttp://www.bigappleherp.com]www.bigappleherp.com[/link] and [linkhttp://www.rodentpro.com]www.rodentpro.com[/link]) use CO2 gas. When used incorrectly, CO2 gas CAN be painful- but introduced slowly into a closed container, the feeders go right to sleep. I have used CO2 euthanasia before, watched the effects first hand, and know it to be humane.
 
As with anything, some sources for feeders are better than others. There are sources out there that kill feeders inhumanely, and those are to be avoided. The better sources are fine.
 
Not only is death by reptile terrifying for the rodent, it is HUGELY dangerous to the reptile. Rats especially WILL defend themselves with their teeth if necessary...and more than one snake has been killed by its prey. A google image search will provide hundreds of photos of snakes and lizards horribly injured by prey animals.
 
I am in no way against reptile ownership- I've owned my share of snakes and lizards. I'm even considering getting a bearded dragon and possibly a corn or king snake right now. But as with any animal RESPONSIBLE ownership is important...and no RESPONSIBLE reptile owner will *ever* reccomend the use of live feeders barring some kind of medical issue preventing the snake from eating killed prey.
 
Responsible owners simply do not feed live rodents- just as we have things that make a person a responsible dog owner, there are things that make a person a responsible reptile owner...and this is one of them. Anyone who is against feeding humanely pre killed prey is either HORRIBLY misinformed or a sadist...and I'm 100% sure that responsible reptile owners will agree.
 
I truly am sorry for the derail, but this really is an issue that I feel strongly about- my apologies to the mods.

My bf has 5 snakes and he used live mouses and rats...and it is horrible I was stupid enough to watch one day and cried. I could not handle it, I felt horrible. The poor mouse hide in the corner for about 10 min before the snake got to it. Ah I HATE him having snakes.

Well I can honestly say that I wouldn't shop in a store that sell puppies  (my heart would just break to see puppies in crates [:'(])  I'd want to set them all free.  But I'm lucky NONE of the pet stores around here sell puppies.  I wonder though if that couple ended up buying a puppy?  Hope not!  NO MORE PUPPY MILL PLEASE!!!!!!!!

Ugh, Raja, that's awful. []
 
Snakes really can be wonderful pets though...as long as they're fed properly. Remember dogs are carnivores too...their prey just comes in a package that's easier to look at. [] As long as snakes are fed prekilled prey, it's fine. I'm amazed that I'm hearing people defending live feeders though...I honestly and truly thought that most people had moved past that. I havem't met anyone in YEARS who still fed live prey to their reptiles. [sm=eek.gif] Most people wouldn't feed their dogs a live chicken (at least I hope they wouldn't) and snakes should be no different. There is simply NO excuse not to feed humanely killed prey. Unfortunately, I find that many of the people who defend secretly just like watching their snakes kill things. Some people though honestly just don't know better...just like there are some people who honestly don't realize that it isn't good to feed dogs Ol' Roy. Many people, upon realizing what a bad decision live prey is for their reptiles, change to pre killed.
 
And hey, you could also look at it this way- live prey tends to carry parasites (rats are prone to mites, especially) and MANY reptiles end up with infestations do to coming into contact with live rodents. Freezing kills most parasites, and GREATLY reduces that risk...I have yet to meet a snake fed a pre killed diet with external parasites.
 
The reasons NOT to feed live prey are beyond numerous...and I can't think of a single GOOD reason to feed live.

ORIGINAL: Ratsicles

Ugh, Raja, that's awful. []

Snakes really can be wonderful pets though...as long as they're fed properly. Remember dogs are carnivores too...their prey just comes in a package that's easier to look at. [] As long as snakes are fed prekilled prey, it's fine. I'm amazed that I'm hearing people defending live feeders though...I honestly and truly thought that most people had moved past that. I havem't met anyone in YEARS who still fed live prey to their reptiles. [sm=eek.gif] Most people wouldn't feed their dogs a live chicken (at least I hope they wouldn't) and snakes should be no different. There is simply NO excuse not to feed humanely killed prey. Unfortunately, I find that many of the people who defend secretly just like watching their snakes kill things. Some people though honestly just don't know better...just like there are some people who honestly don't realize that it isn't good to feed dogs Ol' Roy. Many people, upon realizing what a bad decision live prey is for their reptiles, change to pre killed.

And hey, you could also look at it this way- live prey tends to carry parasites (rats are prone to mites, especially) and MANY reptiles end up with infestations do to coming into contact with live rodents. Freezing kills most parasites, and GREATLY reduces that risk...I have yet to meet a snake fed a pre killed diet with external parasites.

The reasons NOT to feed live prey are beyond numerous...and I can't think of a single GOOD reason to feed live.

Ya I actually asked him about it. I know nothing about snakes. He wanted to get the frozen ones but no pet store sells them around here, and he said buying them online was too expensive.

There is one snake and reptile store called Kasch's Critters, and I have gone in the store with him before, and the guy, breeds his own rats and mouses, they are what looks like tupperwear with a grated metal lid. The snakes cages often look unsanitary to me. And the guy is always pushing him into buying more snakes...he already has 5 and a Sulata(sp?) turtle.

I am wondering why this guy who ownes the store doesn't tell his customers to feed frozen. I thought it was weird when I found out he breeds his own rats and mice.
 
Oh yes I forgot he also had a problem with his snakes having mites and he has to spray something on them to kill the mites, also one of his snakes did get bit by a rat on its nose.

There is one snake and reptile store called Kasch's Critters, and I have gone in the store with him before, and the guy, breeds his own rats and mouses, they are what looks like tupperwear with a grated metal lid. The snakes cages often look unsanitary to me. And the guy is always pushing him into buying more snakes...he already has 5 and a Sulata(sp?) turtle.

 
Sounds about right. Much like  the various small pet shop owners who also sell puppies, very few pet shop owners who are also herpers are *responsible* herpers...at least that's always been my experience. And feeder breeders VERY rarely care about the welfare of their feeders...but trying to explain to someone who regards rats as nothing more than furry food that they really should have toys to play with and at least 2 square feet of personal space per rat doesn't usually go over well, as you can imagine.
 

I am wondering why this guy who ownes the store doesn't tell his customers to feed frozen. I thought it was weird when I found out he breeds his own rats and mice.

 
Many people with large collections of reptiles breed their own rats and mice...the responsible ones euthanize them with CO2. The standard of care they give their rodents is deplorable compared to the way people who keep rodents as pets keep them...but that's unlikely to change since the entire object of breeding their own is to save money. If I ever get reptiles again, I will probably breed the mice myself (won't get anythign that needs rats again, rats just  = pet in my brain and it's not a road I'd go down again) so that I can provide them with ample space, toys, hiding places, a good diet, etc....which they would never get from even the most humane feeder breeder. That's just me though, and I'm going off on a tangent now....but for the average person, ordering feeders online is the best and most humane option.
 
Tell your boyfriend that if he's open to the idea, I can PM you and give you instructions as to how to build a CO2 chamber to euthanize rodents in at home, so he'll no longer have to risk the safety of his snakes with live feeders.
 

Oh yes I forgot he also had a problem with his snakes having mites and he has to spray something on them to kill the mites, also one of his snakes did get bit by a rat on its nose.

 
I have seen rats kill snakes even much larger than themselves. Rats are opportunistic predators who KNOW how to hunt and kill- they're not meek herbivores live other rodents. If they can overcome the paralyzing fear, they will fight for their lives. Not only is it horrible for the rat (who are HIGHLY intelligent animals, smarter than dogs, and suffer GREATLY in the amount of time they're stuck there cornered in a tiny glass cage with no hope of escape) but it is dangerous for the snake...as your story proves.
 
Sigh, it just makes me so sad that so many reptiles are at risk for such horrible deaths...and that the rodents they eat have to go through so much needless terror beforehand. [&o]

Great for you on your little chat with the store owner! []

On Eagle Pack & Innova I have used both (currently on Innova - used to use Eagle Pack Duck & Oatmeal holistic) they are both great foods. Eagle Pack has printable coupons listed on their site... I wish Innova did!

I get Max's food from a little store here in town, Georgie is eating raw now, and Max will switch when we are out of food. I do occassionally shop in Petsmart and Petco also. I occassionally shop in the store that sells puppies, if they are the only ones that have what I need, and I can't wait for it to be shipped.
As for feeding snakes, I'm also shocked to see people defending feeding live. The only reason to do it as far as I am concerned is if the snake simply won't eat the dead stuff. My friend had a ball python that she couldn't get to take frozen mice, so she had to feed live. The snake she has now came eating frozen, and there is no reason to do otherwise. My snake came from Petco, and you can flame me all you want for it, but the cages were clean, all the herps looked good, the snakes were feeding on frozen mice, and the girl knew what she was talking about, and was willing to admit to me when she had no clue what she was talking about. I don't know if it's true for the whole chain, but at least in the Petco I bought my snake at, they feed all the snakes frozen thawed, and I know the signs there say the Petco recommends feeding frozen thawed rodents or something to that effect. I buy mine at Petco because they are cheaper than at Petsmart. The packages are also smaller, which I prefer since i'm not keeping them in my own freezer.

As for feeding snakes, I'm also shocked to see people defending feeding live. The only reason to do it as far as I am concerned is if the snake simply won't eat the dead stuff. My friend had a ball python that she couldn't get to take frozen mice, so she had to feed live. The snake she has now came eating frozen, and there is no reason to do otherwise. My snake came from Petco, and you can flame me all you want for it, but the cages were clean, all the herps looked good, the snakes were feeding on frozen mice, and the girl knew what she was talking about, and was willing to admit to me when she had no clue what she was talking about. I don't know if it's true for the whole chain, but at least in the Petco I bought my snake at, they feed all the snakes frozen thawed, and I know the signs there say the Petco recommends feeding frozen thawed rodents or something to that effect. I buy mine at Petco because they are cheaper than at Petsmart. The packages are also smaller, which I prefer since i'm not keeping them in my own freezer.

 
Whew, finally! I really was shocked to see all of the people defending live feeders...I honestly hadn't seen anyone promotive live feeding in years. [sm=eek.gif]
 
I definitely won't flame you for getting your snake from Petco- unfortunately, 99% of pet stores are just as bad as Petco when it comes to reptiles, and responsible reptile breeders are very few and far between and not something most people have access to. When I get my future reptile (bearded dragon, king, or corn snake) I'll most likely have to go through a pet store.
 
And of course, there are snakes out there who can't be fed frozen prey. Ball pythons not accepting killed prey don't surprise me, many of them are wild caught and are notoriously finicky eaters. But I have found that MANY people give up the first time their snake rejects killed prey....failing to realize that the transition to frozen is not always instantaneous and can take some work. I would say that barring some wild caught individuals, 99% of snakes can be taught to eat frozen.

First, GOOD FOR YOU FOR TELLING IT LIKE IT WAS.  I have read many horror stories on different forums about the pet store puppies and their illnesses and problems.
 
Second, I don't have to worry about live or dead prey because i am more scared of snakes than of almost any other critter.  My Dad's pointer was hit in the neck by a rattlesnake while quail hunting, my oldest golden was hit in the face by a rattlesnake in our back yard, my mom was bitten my copperhead, my ex-sister-in-law was also bitten by copperhead, one of my Dad's setters was bitten by cottonmouth.  Therefore snakes are not my thing.  I have killed 2 coral snakes in our yard--i do gardening and they could get my fingers, they could get my dogs toes.  But i hvae caught and released grass snakes, garter snakes, etc and don't mind them in the yard at all.  When I see a snake that i have not seen before, i always ust a shovel and get it in a 5 gallon bucket and then to to the web to look it up.  There are so many different kinds of rattle snakes.  A checkered garter snake was a new one on me and I did like that guy.  he never did even try to bit the shovel or the stick, etc.  Released him in my ferns.

I would say that barring some wild caught individuals, 99% of snakes can be taught to eat frozen.

How in the world do you teach a snake that something it doesn't think is food is in reality a tasty meal?

There are various methods used to teach snakes to accept killed prey. The easiest is to start them on it from birth- usually captive bred snakes who are given killed prey as their first meal accpet it just fine, grow up eating killed prey, and never know any different.

That isn't always possible though- so other methods have to be used. Some of them are more graffic than others...but eh. Usually people will start with offering freshly killed prey rather than thawed frozen prey....the snake is more likely to accept something that was obviously recently alive. Usually the prey will be offered to the snake on tongs (long forcep looking things) and kind of wiggled around to make it look like its moving and entice the snake to strike. Once the snake strikes it'll usually coil around the prey and "crush" it as if it were alive, and eat it from there. Gradually you phase out the use of the tongs and replace freshly killed prey with thawed frozen prey.

Extra picky snakes can usually be tempted by exposing blood or brain matter of dead prey...the scent usually entices them to eat. Dipping the prey in chicken broth works as well.

Some snakes are more difficult that others...switching some can take months, while others will accept frozen prey tossed into their cage as if they've eaten that way their whole life. Snakes DO have personalities, and it really depends on the individual.
 
ETA: I'd also like to point out that constricting does not usually just cause a quick death by suffocation. The prey is crushed before it passes out from pain and lack of oxygen...listen closely to a snake eating, and you will hear bones break while the prey is still fully concious. I've seen it first hand many times, and it is not a pleasant way to go.

My groomer started selling dogs, pure breed and cross breeds - Pugagles and all different XX/doodles.  I love my groomers, they are right down the street but I get very torn about returning.  We bring River there once a month for a $5 nail clipping but now bring him to a different groomer where we board him on vacations.  I just can't bring myself to help fund her business.
 
I never said anything to her because she is so nice, but I have wanted to.  She takes good care of them really, exercises them and keeps there crates (show rooms) clean and she is a animal lover that is why I am stumped she has decided to sell them.  I know she must be aware of these breeders she is getting them from are puppy mills and what that represents. [:@]  Sometimes money is the root of all evil.[&:]

My friend, Lee, had a Ball Python named Sulphur. He wasn't interested in warmed over death. He preferred live food, as his ancestors have done for countless millennia. So, Lee would buy mice and keep them until feeding time. In my estimation, a snake is a snake and they eat live rodents.