Crating your dogs is a terrible thing???

TheDogHouseBCMPD

I realize this is an issue that is never going to be resolved where 100% of people agree (is there any issue like that? )  But why must people (not here, but people like that author) put down others, or try to make them feel badly, for disagreeing?  There are several reasons people us crates.  And I agree it shouldn't be 24/7.  We use crates for everyone but Blaze and I'd love to be able to get rid of them entirely...but its not gonna happen.  I have an all female pack and one of them is an Akita.  Akita's are known to be aggressive toward other dogs of the same sex.  We've only ever had one issue but it would be totally irresponsible of me to leave them out together when no one is home to make sure everything is ok.  And maybe one day I'll have a place with enough doors to be able to leave her in a separate room when we are gone and everyone can be out, but right now I don't and I'm just trying to do the best I can to keep everyone safe.  Crates, like anything can be misused, but they also can be  useful.  Just my 2 cents thrown in for what it's worth.

ETA: I'm sure PETA has done SOME good things for animals and was probably even started with good intentions, but the craziness they've done has overshadowed that, I think. 

but thats the point PITA(i love that) is trying to make!! if you cant have peace among your pack then you're irresponsible for even coming close to creating a "situation"

they paint people like you (and me... Kaydee and Amber are both alphas and when you have two alpha bitches you have female aggression) are the worst kind because we're FORCING animals to live together and MAKING them accept the conditions...... like prison. you have no control over who surrounds you.... and yes you may die as a result. they would rather see the dogs dead then living like "that" ..... ugh... they're misanthropic and have anti-social tendencies. i dont care WHAT good they have done for animals. they are anti-productive and have nothing useful to offer the future. purely selfish motives in my opinion. 

Not to mention those pups and kittens that PETA "euth'd" and left on a rubbish dump.  Using their own logic - that the animals have the same rights as a human child - what did they think they were doing????  The murder of innocents is OK is it, as long as you're a member of PETA?!  Good grief.

My response to the article is - laughter.  And derisive snorting.  Clearly, this is someone who has never understood the concept behind crating, probably has never even TRIED to understand it.  Her ignorance is blatant in every line.

Mind you, the lamp and what not on the top, that's not such a bad idea.  I already drape a sheet over it to make it seem more den-like and also because they are pretty ugly things.  I THINK it would be safe to give ours free run again and just put the crates away, but I honestly don't think Max would forgive me if I packed his away now.....

Hum.. I'm honestly surprised by everyone's feelings toward PETA. Yes, they're quite radical. Yes, they do a lot of things wrong, but honestly? I don't disagree with all of their beliefs. What makes a human life more important than an animal's life? What gives us the right to own and control animals? I love my pets dearly, and I love HAVING pets, but I don't totally disagree with “Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.”, for example.

There are domestic animals in the world, and as long as there are, there is and should be pet ownership, but what if we never domesticated dogs or cats? They wouldn't be suffering, they wouldn't be euthanized by the millions for lack of homes, they wouldn't be tortured and abused... I can't totally condemn that view, sorry. If all dogs stopped breeding tomorrow, I would miss having dogs, definitely, but maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing? I'd give up having dogs (I wouldn't give up Cherokee...clearly it would be a "stop all breeding" thing, not a "kill all the dogs in the world" thing) if it meant no more dogs would ever suffer. Animals are not our play-thing. They're not here for us to misuse and abuse. They're living, breathing, thinking, feeling, hurting, loving beings.

I don't support what PETA does, but I support a lot of their opinions and goals. Flame me now.

if it meant no more dogs would ever suffer.

What an arrogant attitude- lets force a species into extinction just to prevent a few cases of suffering.  Following this train of "thought", logically, wouldn't it be better for animals if all humans committed suicide tomorrow?  You first, I'm too busy caring for my "suffering" dogs. Who are occasionally crated.

mudpuppy

What an arrogant attitude- lets force a species into extinction just to prevent a few cases of suffering.  Following this train of "thought", logically, wouldn't it be better for animals if all humans committed suicide tomorrow?  You first, I'm too busy caring for my "suffering" dogs. Who are occasionally crated.

Interesting. And you call me arrogant...

You'll note I specifically said "stop dog breeding, not kill all dogs". It WOULD be better for animals if humans stopped breeding tomorrow. It would be better for the entire planet if in 80 years there were no more humans. I don't want that to happen obviously, but it WOULD be better for animals and the planet. You'll also note I did not say any I-doggers' dogs are suffering. I don't have an issue with crates used properly, but yeah, a lot of people misuse them. The suffering I'm talking about is the millions of dogs sitting in cages waiting to be euthed. Or the ones who people beat to death, or close. Or the dogs who people pour gasoline on and light aflame. Animal suffering, dog suffering, happens, we all know that.

Dogs aren't a species either. They're a subspecies that WE created. They didn't evolve nor were they weren't created by God (depending on your beliefs). We created them for our own use...pleasure, misuse, and abuse. We didn't domesticate them for their own good.

maybe a lot of dogs LIKE being with people though? yes many suffer and are abused, but - if the media is correct - the pet industry and all its accessories are at an all time high. people are having more pets than children....

and think about it.... i've lived around feral dogs, wild canids, and domesticated dogs. the feral dogs mooch off the fringes of society. they'll steal before they'll hunt. domesticated dogs, when lost, usually find the nearest person unless its one of those independent/skittish breeds.. then its likely to either become feral or go back to its owner if it can.

unlike the horse, cow, and rabbit... dogs(and cats) chose to live beside us. cats dont have a problem with getting up and moving along.. some dogs dont either, but the majority, even when given the chance to run away...... simply dont! maybe training has something to do with that? and maybe it doesnt? when i worked on the ranch there were several feral dogs, born to a domesticated mother.... these pups wouldnt let you near them, but they also would follow you on trail rides, and hang out with you at the barn... some would even fetch. you just couldnt touch them!

We didnt create dogs.... they created themselves.... so they could survive. 

in nature interspecies partnerships exist in other animals... not just in people and dogs. horses, cattle, rabbits(livestock) didnt ask to be domesticated. they have nothing to gain by being with people.. but dogs, because we share a similar diet, have everything to gain! food and future.... i have a hard time believing that humans would have made it to this point in history without dogs to hunt for and protect them.

i think its funny when people say stuff like "there are too many humans in the world!!" and suggest the benefits of a pandemic or mass suicide... ok fine. be my guest. you and YOUR family can go first.... Personally i want to live and i want my family to live to have families too. but i'm not mooching off the earth... making a mess and not cleaning up after myself... i raise my own food in the country instead of living in some cramped city (where i MUST keep my dogs crated)

the radicals for animal rights and human extinction seem(to me anyway) to reside in the large filthy cities where there are far too many people, everyone has a rotten attitude and is scared to death of the guy walking next to them or living upstairs from them. i guess if i lived like that i'd go a little stir crazy too.  you never know when you might be attacked!!

when rats live like that they start eating each other...... i think people have something in common with rats in regards to over population..

chelsea_b

Dogs aren't a species either. They're a subspecies that WE created. They didn't evolve nor were they weren't created by God (depending on your beliefs). We created them for our own use...pleasure, misuse, and abuse. We didn't domesticate them for their own good.

Scientific nomenclature is an inexact and changing science, but many people/organizations believe that dogs and wolves are indeed a separate species. 

http://pub9.bravenet.com/faq/show.php?usernum=743695238&catid=3400

http://www.wolfhowl.org/subspecies.php

Of course if you use the theory that species cannot mate and produce fertile offspring, you believe that all Canis species are simply subspecies, not different species.  (http://www.kc.net/~wolf2dog/wayne1.htm)  Personally I believe that there are enough behavioral differences alone to separate the dogs from wolves from coyotes from jackals.  But you'll find articles from scientists on either side of this debate.

Also I don't believe that humans created dogs.  I believe it was more of a mutual thing.  Now I would not argue that there was a breeding plan to develop, say, the Labrador Retriever and that this breed was created by humans, but I don't believe that ancient people set out with a plan to develop the dog as we know it when those wolves first started hanging around the campfire.  (Coppenger's Dogs is an interesting read on the domestication of dogs and, if I remember correctly, they advocate it was a fairly mutual exchange.)  I'm not even convinced that the native peoples of Benin, DRC, etc have a breeding program for their dogs.  But, due to isolation and a natural Darwinian effect, a type of dog arises. 

chelsea_b

mudpuppy

What an arrogant attitude- lets force a species into extinction just to prevent a few cases of suffering.  Following this train of "thought", logically, wouldn't it be better for animals if all humans committed suicide tomorrow?  You first, I'm too busy caring for my "suffering" dogs. Who are occasionally crated.

Interesting. And you call me arrogant...

You'll note I specifically said "stop dog breeding, not kill all dogs". It WOULD be better for animals if humans stopped breeding tomorrow. It would be better for the entire planet if in 80 years there were no more humans. I don't want that to happen obviously, but it WOULD be better for animals and the planet. You'll also note I did not say any I-doggers' dogs are suffering. I don't have an issue with crates used properly, but yeah, a lot of people misuse them. The suffering I'm talking about is the millions of dogs sitting in cages waiting to be euthed. Or the ones who people beat to death, or close. Or the dogs who people pour gasoline on and light aflame. Animal suffering, dog suffering, happens, we all know that.

Dogs aren't a species either. They're a subspecies that WE created. They didn't evolve nor were they weren't created by God (depending on your beliefs). We created them for our own use...pleasure, misuse, and abuse. We didn't domesticate them for their own good.

I've never understood the logic of "If they didn't exist they would not suffer so they should not exist."  Sorry, it just seems unproductive to me.  Domestic dogs do exist, and likely will always exist.  Wouldn't it be a whole hack of a lot more useful and realistic to say "OK, they do exist and likely always will exist so let's do what we can to reduce suffering, abuse, etc."  The western world is slowly but surely coming into the idea that animals do have emotions, etc.  Imagine how much good a group like PETA would do if they gave some of the money they spend terrifying small children outside of fast food establishments and protesting life-saving lab testing (yes, I am one of those evil, arrogant people who believe that a sick human child's life is worth more than a rat's) to help rescue groups, etc.  Animal abuse/neglect is becoming much more socially unacceptable.  Will it ever disappear completely?  Unfortunately no.  However, neither will child abuse, so by your own logic you had better have yourself sterilized promptly--if domestic animals shouldn't exist due to the fact that some of them are abused/neglected, then the same should apply for children, no?  After all, they didn't ask to be born.

I do believe in most cases dogs and humans have a mutually beneficial relationship.  The vast majority of pet dogs, even if they are not fed super premium food, in tons of training classes, walked 15 miles a day, etc, are very happy with their lives.  You could stick Jack into a home full of kids and activity where he was not the center of attention, he *maybe* got a walk every other day, he never went to a training class, and he was fed Kibbles 'n Bits and he would be in heaven, just to be around people.  Actually, if you considered dog's feelings and opinions, they would probably want to survive and continue to propagate their species in the presence of humans (remember, the early dogs were rarely contained in any way--they had a choice as to whether they stayed with humans).

Do we "use" dogs in our daily lives?  Yes, but I don't think I've ever seen an unhappy seeing eye dog, therapy dog, police dog, gun dog, agility dog, hog dog, herding dog, SAR dog, drug dog, etc.  At the school where my mom teaches the school counselor has a golden retriever that is a combination service dog (the counselor is handicapped) and therapy dog that is used in sessions to help people open up more freely.  He also goes into the classrooms and helps the teachers teach kids about the responsibilities or owning a dog and dog safety.  I defy anyone to watch that dog do his job and tell me that he is a poor, exploited creature.

Finally, you can say what you want about humans having no more right to be alive than animals, but I have a hard time believing that if your niece and nephew were extremely sick (God forbid) and the doctors told you that they could come up with a lifesaving cure but animal testing had to be used to do it, that you would choose to allow those kids to die. 

sillysally

Finally, you can say what you want about humans having no more right to be alive than animals, but I have a hard time believing that if your niece and nephew were extremely sick (God forbid) and the doctors told you that they could come up with a lifesaving cure but animal testing had to be used to do it, that you would choose to allow those kids to die. 

This is entirely true, however it doesn't mean I necessarily think their lives are "worth more" than a lab animal's. Worth more to me, yes, and I'd like to think that my niece and nephew will do great things in their lives and therefore WILL be worth more to the world than a rat, but honestly...most people don't do anything good in the grand scheme of things, and maybe the planet would be better off without them.

I don't have entirely concrete opinions in this subject (hence the million "maybes" and "necessarilys" in these posts), so I wish people would stop talking to me like I do. I'm forming opinions, so telling me to commit suicide is just a bit unwarranted. Ethics are tricky to form from scratch, especially in such sticky topics as animal welfare. I think I finally understand why so many people turn to religion or just parrot other people. Least then you're not being attacked for your own ideas and opinions.

chelsea_b

sillysally

Finally, you can say what you want about humans having no more right to be alive than animals, but I have a hard time believing that if your niece and nephew were extremely sick (God forbid) and the doctors told you that they could come up with a lifesaving cure but animal testing had to be used to do it, that you would choose to allow those kids to die. 

This is entirely true, however it doesn't mean I necessarily think their lives are "worth more" than a lab animal's. Worth more to me, yes, and I'd like to think that my niece and nephew will do great things in their lives and therefore WILL be worth more to the world than a rat, but honestly...most people don't do anything good in the grand scheme of things, and maybe the planet would be better off without them.

I don't have entirely concrete opinions in this subject (hence the million "maybes" and "necessarilys" in these posts), so I wish people would stop talking to me like I do. I'm forming opinions, so telling me to commit suicide is just a bit unwarranted. Ethics are tricky to form from scratch, especially in such sticky topics as animal welfare. I think I finally understand why so many people turn to religion or just parrot other people. Least then you're not being attacked for your own ideas and opinions.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again.  Disagreement is not attacking.  Please point out exactly where in my post I was attacking you.  If you put ideas out onto a message board it is a bit unreasonable to get bothered when people respond, IMHO. 

That's a bit of a generalization to say that "most people don't do anything good" (then again so is the idea that people who have religious leanings do not form their own ideas and opinions...)  How do you know what people have done good things?  Do you know most people?  What do you define as "good?"  I actually think that the vast majority of people have done something to help their fellow human or animals in their lives.  So who decides if they are "good enough" to be worth more than a rat?

Oy. Nevermind. Seems like I'm always just explaining myself nowadays. I think lurkers might have the right idea. If you read my last post again, you might see you have the wrong idea about several things, and you put words in my mouth several times, buuut I'm tired of explaining and defending myself. Plus we're now way off-topic. Sorry mods.

Chelsea, I mean you no ill will. I like you lots.

But wild animals suffer. All the time. The life of most animals sucks. Their lives aren't unimportant. But the house pets we here love and cherish and care for are the exception in the animal kingdom.

I hate human cruelty towards dogs and cats. Hate, hate, hate. But life as a non-pet animal is not roses and rainbows. It is a frantic struggle for survival, mostly. Fear, hunger, calculation.

I don't feel badly about domestication, not at all. I wish that animals were afforded more rights, that it were illegal to inhumanely raise and slaughter animals for food, that deliberate animal cruelty held harsher penalties, and that spay and neuter were free and available across the globe.

It is rare if not impossible for an organization or person to be all bad. This does not mean it is ok for that organization or person to do great harm. I believe PETA does great harm, much more harm than good. As such, I will not support them. Period.  

My animals (pets) and I enjoy mutually satisfactory relationships. My cats go outside. They don't have to come back. Sasha is "one of us" in her mind. Stockholm syndrome? Possible, but some how I don't think so.  

I would imagine that most, if not all of us, could provide a lengthy list of the good we do in the world.  Bottom line tho, if you touch just ONE life you've made a difference, you've done good.

However, back ON TOPIC, yes, I use crates.  And I have my reasons, above and beyond not being 100% certain that my furniture would be intact when I return if I didn't.  Remember, Thor and Sheba ATE a new recliner as youngsters in less than 20 minutes.  My pillowback sofa met the same fate.  I have SIX large dogs who could do great bodily harm to one another if someone happened to get a wild hair in my absence.  When I am home, a single word is all it takes for them to settle, but what happens if I'm not here?  Do I really want to risk returning to bloody injured or dead dogs?  Will the "pack mentality" kick in and cause ALL to attack one for some minor offense?

And then there is the concern about "in case of emergency".  If someone breaks into my house when I'm gone, they can HAVE my stuff....but if my dogs are loose, will THEY survive?  Or will some crack head intent on something to hock for drugs put a bullet in their heads?  What about fire?  Would firefighters be willing to enter a home with six loose and terrified dogs?  Not likely.  And the stuff can burn, I don't care about the stuff, but my dogs lives CAN be saved if a firefighter is able to drag a crate outside of the structure without danger to his/her person.

The only way I can ever see feeling safe leaving my dogs uncrated when I'm gone is if I hit the lotto and am wealthy enough to build separate indoor, outdoor runs that are not attached to the house and fireproofed in some way.  And I haven't hit the jackpot yet.

chelsea_b

Dogs aren't a species either. They're a subspecies that WE created. They didn't evolve nor were they weren't created by God (depending on your beliefs). We created them for our own use...pleasure, misuse, and abuse. We didn't domesticate them for their own good.

I think you are quite wrong. Dogs are a SPECIES (Canis familiaris) and they did evolve alongside humans, in a symbiotic relationship.  Yes, in latter years we have manipulated that evolution through selective breeding and created many diverse breeds... in some cases practically mutilating the dog in the process, but that's probably for another thread.  While there is suffering, and while it is created by humans.... I think that is no reason to abolish pet ownership.  No reason at all.  We are the way we are today because of dogs - they have changed us as a species as well as us changing them.  Truly, I would fear for humankind if no more pet dogs were allowed to be bought or bred.  I think they make us better people!

The bottom line is that if you are concerned with the welfare of domestic animals, or the impact humans have on the natural environment, there are way better organizations to get behind. Ones that don't actually want to do away with all domesticated species (many of whom domesticated themselves, because living around humans with all of our trash, is a pretty easy life for an animal).