the mind of a BYB

rwbeagles

DumDog

OK this is like discussing the difference between a trekie and trekker. a breeder is a breeder regardless of the intentions behind it.

besides the supposed "profit" that seems to spring from the loins of a dog (sarcasm) why do you think these people breed the crap out of their dogs? and what do you think is swimming through their heads when they do breed their dogs? and do you think their past upbringing has anything to do with it?

You seem to be contradicting yourself somewhat...I just want to understand what you are actually asking, and what group of people you are actually asking about?

ok one more time and then you can close the thread because no one seems to be paying attention. they're too busy defending the good breeders, and i am not talking about them.

For the individuals who personally know someone who considers themself a breeder (but is really contradictory to a GOOD breeder) .. if you know this person or persons then you may know how they were raised, if they are depressed, what their excuses are for breeding, how they justify it to you and others, are they consistent with their justifications.

 my ex boss bred dobermans. they were his trail dogs, watch dogs, and yes he sold them and no he didnt make any money off them... they were just dogs in the yard to him. if they had puppies it was fine. it was even better if they were pure bred. but like i said they were just dogs in the yard.... he considered himself a horseman. that was his hobby.. breeding horses.. so he was a BYHB. he has two different reputations in that town... a slimy dirt bag that will cheat you and rob you blind with one crowd.. but with another crowd he is polite, intelligent and savvy in the ways of horses, a friendly kind of guy. since i worked with him quite a bit i knew both sides of him.

Now, my cousin the breeder goes to the shelter, knows full well that there are dogs dying there for want of a home, but she keeps on doing what she does. she breeds, sells, and any left overs go to the "No kill shelter" and yes she knows that if they dont find a home there that they get shipped to another shelter and will possibly die if they dont have any luck there. she justifies her breeding by saying she breeds for good temperament. does she train them? no. Does she check the background? no. But she makes sure the dog she wants to breed has a sweet disposition and matches it with another sweety.. and expects the puppies will turn out to be sweeties. and that is the reason she doesnt have any of her animals fixed. they all have gleaming personalities so they deserve to pass that on.

and yeah there are those that breed so that they continue a blood line... even if its not a real honest to goodness bloodline. Old Sport was a good dog and he was smart so Bubba wants a pup from him.. Sport Junior.. but Sport Junior is a rascal and a trouble maker, but he is still the son of Old Sport... so he still wants a another pup... Sport the Turd is even worse, but he saved a kid from drowning so he DEFINITELY wants a pup from him! Old Sport is still in there somewhere! i see that a lot the deeper you go into the country. it seems that a sentimental person breeds for that purpose. to hang on to the past.

anyway.... if still isnt clear then i'll consider this a lost cause. mostly i am speaking to people who know or are related to bybs.
 

Liesje

mrv

I dont think you can find generalities that apply across the groups.  The primary distinction I have personally observed there is a difference between the serious hobby breeder who is in competition of some sort that "proves" the worth of a dog under multiple situations and those who throw to dogs together.  There are folks from all levels of education, employment, interests, backgrounds etc who fit into either catagory.

 There is an obvious difference in volume produced.

 

 

Right on.  Also, one thing that says a lot to me is when a breeder will openly point out which dogs they have that they decided NOT to breed and why.  With a breed as popular as German Shepherds, I want assurance that the reputable hobby breeders know *exactly* what they are looking for and even if they've spent 3 years and thousands of dollars showing, working, training, and titling a dog, they will not hesitate to keep the dog from breeding if there's just one little thing that doesn't fit what they are looking for.  IMO, it's still not enough just to show and work the dogs, get their health certs, make sure they fit the standard....I want to know why they are choosing each specific dog and why they are not choosing other dogs someone else may have chosen.

that is EXACTLY what i mean. a good breeder will point out the flaws on their own dogs. but the other kind of breeder will point out all the reasons why chose to breed.

you can find good any animal but doesnt mean you should breed it. When i first got Ben everyone said how handsome and well built he was and he wasnt fixed so was i going to breed him? My answer was a flat firm no. He is a coward. he wont pull his belly up off the ground long enough to service a female anyway! But he was sooo sweet, and cute and look at his physique! But again... cowardice is NOT part of the bulldog standard, but courage is. doesnt matter how he was treated. a good dog isnt easily ruined in the bulldog world.  

with my cousin and her shepherds she points out the "qualities" on her stud... he is big, he is brave, he is pretty (she is mostly hung up on the mahogany shade of his coat) And he is related to her first shepherd.... (whose breeder long since retired because she got fed up with the idiots flocking to her door) All i see when i look at that stud is a rangy red haired coyote with severe dog aggression... but at least he is brave!  

asked and answered

I would classify most BYB’s as falling under three main categories.  The first one is the person that doesn’t feel they need to spay or neuter their animal.  They either don’t want to waste the money or time, or are so uneducated they don’t realize the need for it.  These people often keep backyard dogs, providing only the minimal care and interaction needed to keep the dogs alive.  Before they know it, they end up with an accident of unwanted puppies on their hands.  They do it because they can.

The second group would be the people that just want to have puppies.  Often they love their dogs so much they want to carry down the bloodline, personality or other such traits.  Some want to experience the magic of bringing new pups into the world or even give their dogs the chance of having a family.  Really they aren’t much different than a young couple deciding they would like to bring a human baby into the world, and they do it because they can.

Finally, there is the last category that contains the people that suddenly get the bright idea that breeding puppies will be profitable and they will go about trying to have a litter or two.  They do it because they can.

Usually when I start to hear about tons of pregnant dogs on someone's property, I would make the destinction of it falling under the defention of puppy mill (if they are doing it for profit) or a hoarder (if they are doing it in their mind for the animals).

I don’t think it’s odd at all that so many people want to breed their dogs.  It seems like a natural thing to do, to want to pass down certain characteristics that they might like, such as personality or beautiful appearance.  People do it all the time when they decide to breed.  How many people out there do you think picked the father or mother of their child by genetics or improving the standard of humanity?  How many people choose to have kids even though there are thousands of orphans with no family to call their own.  People consider dog’s man’s best friend, so it’s not surprising they would treat breeding them in much the same fashion.  I think the majority of BYB’s are good people who either don’t have the education for, or have different beliefs in what makes a good dog.

 When I think of a "BYB"  I usually think of someone who really does mean well in their hearts and they really do care for, love, and stand behind their dogs, but for whatever reason they just never did enough research to begin with to realize how harmful what they are doing can me.  Most of the BYBs around here I can think of are people (usually middle aged to elderly women) breeding toy dogs from "champion bloodlines and pedigrees".  They have cute websites with little heart animations and "marry" their dogs, etc.  I'm sure they love their dogs every bit as much as I love mine, but they just never learned (or never were taught) the importance of third party health certifications (not just a vet check and a rabies shot), conformation titles, and work/sport titles.  When you ask why they bred Baby Boy to Froofie-kins, the answer is something like "Baby boy has a heart shape on his side and Froofie-kins is very small, so we are expecting cute little froofie boys with hearts on them! *squeal* ".

If you're selling dogs to make money, then you are a puppy mill, period.  I don't care how much you love your dogs or how many titles they have.  In my mind, breeding dogs for commercial reasons = puppy mill, every time.  There is a puppy mill just south of here that breeds GSDs from the best west German high lines.  They do work and show their dogs.  They get titles and health certificates.  I *almost* went out there to look at puppies.  However, everyone I've talked to who has worked with them tells me that they are only in it to make a buck (the husband at least, the wife really does care about the dogs, but since she stood by and let it get out of control I don't think she's any better).  Even someone who bought and shows a dog from them and helps out at their kennel told me they only care about the money and you can barter over a dog like you could a piece of scrap metal.
 

 Even someone who bought and shows a dog from them and helps out at their kennel told me they only care about the money and you can barter over a dog like you could a piece of scrap metal.

that isnt the worst i've seen with people selling dogs. i saw someone show up in a parking lot to buy a puppy... car full of kids, pet carrier in the trunk of the car.. and this was a large breed dog... yes they bought puppy and you know where they stuck that pet carrier... But that wasnt the worst part. they exchanged money and then turned to go into the store!! now.. Maybe they were going to page their kids who all ran off to shop while business was being done - but who knows! i mean it was a puppy! not a watermelon you bought from a roadside fruit stand!

If you're selling dogs to make money, then you are a puppy mill, period.  I don't care how much you love your dogs or how many titles they have.  In my mind, breeding dogs for commercial reasons = puppy mill, every time.

i agree there.... seems like if anything is charged at all it would be to recover the cost of caring for the health of the mother and the litter and the puppy would go to someone who was waiting for a pup from THAT dog and was willing to wait until their turn came up.. back in the day when dogs worked and people survived with the help from their dog this business of selling dogs that MIGHT be useful just didnt happen. a successful hound was bred to another successful hound when there was a need for the puppies.. to replace a sick or old or injured dog. you probably wouldnt see dogs lying around someone's property like spare parts at a junkyard.

i do believe that a good deal of the bybs are uneducated or have convinced themselves that they arent "one of them" and that they arent really in it for money - though you know it has crossed their mind that its a nice bonus!

in the case of my cousin with her dogs... well i think the family agrees that she is depressed. she's even admitted to that herself once or twice. but instead of getting medication for it she has puppies. i remember one time her telling me that when she had a baby (dont remember if it was the first second or third) that her dog also whelped a litter of puppies shortly after. she said she was crying FOR the dog during the whole labor and saying "i'm so sorry i promise i wont ever do this to you again!"  ..but she either lied or forgot her promise.. another thing about my cousin that i wonder about (again, filling the void perhaps?) she got pregnant when she was 14 and her mom made her give the baby up for adoption. she went to her aunt and uncle and they raised her, the kid knows who her mom is, AND she calls her mom... but there was a large gap between the birth of her daughter and when she finally came back into her life. i know i would be torqued out of shape if that had happened to me at such a young age... so i can only imagine how she felt.. and if she still feels it now. but again... she was always eager to please her mom and make her happy.... and her mom considers herself a breeder. she is one of the Baby Boy and Froofie-kins type.... only her dogs are named after tree nuts... Pecan and Walnut or something.. Praline maybe... they are over weight dogs with luxating patellas, and other joint problems. Mattie (my other cousins dog - sister to the breeder actually) was bred by their mother. She hasnt shown any joint problems yet, but she has a lump on her belly that looks might suspicious... and if they bred that dog for good temperament then i am the Queen of England!! Mattie is downright vicious with strangers!! And she is dog aggressive... which is a death wish for a chihuahua.. i know Chis prefer their own kind.. but Mattie HATES her own kind, and people, and birds, and small pets...

Liesje

If you're selling dogs to make money, then you are a puppy mill, period.  I don't care how much you love your dogs or how many titles they have.  In my mind, breeding dogs for commercial reasons = puppy mill, every time.

Is that "breeding to make money" or "breeding and making money". Or do these 2 statements mean the same thing, 

Also "commercial reasons".  Selling 1 dog makes that a commercial transaction so I guess what that means is that anyone who sells a dog is a puppy miller???

PUPPY MILLS: Mass producer of puppies. Most Mills have more then one breed that they breed for profit only. Puppy Mills breed bitches every season until they die. Mills do not do any type of genetic testing and if they guarantee a dog, it is at the most for 48 hours. Mills sell to pet shops and brokers. The health of their dogs is not a concern of theirs as long as it can still produce. Most mills have 10 times as many females as they do males in all the breeds they have. They also keep more bitches out of a litter so they can continue to breed more and more. Ever notice there are more male dogs in Pet Shops then females? Not all mills are large facilities. A single person can have a small mill of their own in there own backyard depending on the state they live in. A small mill has the morels and ethics as their larger counterparts; they just have fewer dogs. There are people who show dogs that could be considered a puppy mill.

Possible clues that someone is a puppy mill:
1. Breeds mass numbers of litters per year.
2. Prefers to meet their prospective buyers away from their home.
3. Registers CKC opposed to AKC.
4. Gives a 48-72 hour guarantee or none at all.
5. Has pedigrees that have the same, non champion, dog as the sire and the grand sire and also great grand sire.
6. Always have puppies available or always have a litter due.

UNETHICAL BREEDER: Borderline puppy mill. These are breeders that do show some of their dogs and a lot of times have 2-3 breeds they breed to help support the breed they show. These are the well dressed well worded breeders that say they guarantee this that and everything, but the truth be known, once your money is in their hand they could care less what happens to the dog. These breeders sell breeder dogs and a lot of times require you to CO-own a *** for puppies' back. They will also CO-own males for breeding rights in the future. These breeders also breed their bitches every heat and a lot of times will place the *** in a pet home or pawn it off on another breeder when they have got all they want out of her. Here again money is the issue not the well being of the dog or the improvement of the breed. Unethical breeders breed dogs they know have genetic traits, but it doesn't matter because once sold they aren't their problem.

BACKYARD BREEDER: These breeders are not as bad as they may sound. They usually have a couple dogs that they may breed once or twice a year. They usually do not make false claims or promise you anything. They are very open and tell you they only have these two dogs and they are their pets and they breed for fun not for a profit.

ETHICAL RESPONSIBLE BREEDER: Breeding for the betterment and pureness of the breed. These are breeders that have studied for years before getting any dogs. They studied pedigrees, genetics and over all soundness of their breed. They do testing for inherited diseases before they breed a dog. They breed for dogs that best meet the breed standard. They have done their research and know what dogs not to double up on when breeding two dogs with similar parentage. Since genetic problems can crop up many years down the line, these breeders will sell a puppy with a genetic problem (bad bite, down ears..etc) to a pet home on limited registration and spay/neuter contracts. They also have it in the contract that the buyer understands the problem, that way nothing is being hidden or lied about. These breeders usually breed for themselves and only on an occasion do they have anything available. Responsible breeders that show, would rather place their puppies in pet homes then place them with other show/breeders who may not have the same morals and ethics. Most do not sell dogs for the sole purpose of breeding. When you call one of these breeders looking for a puppy, they will ask you more questions then you ever dreamed could be asked. They really want to know the person or persons that are wanting to own a dog they produced and make sure they are the right ones for one of their puppies. They have explicit contracts and always, always have a clause in it that states: If at any time in this dogs life the buyer can longer keep the dog, seller has first right of refusal for puppy back, or that puppy must come back to seller.

 I know 2 BYB's personally.  One is my sister, who is your typical do anything for anyone kind of person as long as it gains her recognition.  She bends over backwards for her kids friends and anyone that goes to highschool.  The family she married into gets her attention first all the time before this side of the family.  And if one of them so much as looks her way favourably, she practically squeals with glee.  But then, we have always doted on her.  My parents will do anything for us, both of us, not just her, but, while I do whatever I can to help them out, my sister has to practically be begged.  And then she does it like its some huge favour and is sure to tell everyone that she HAS to help her mom and dad cause the can't possibly do it without her.  That said, I'm not sure how much it really had to do with her breeding Pint.  She's only bred once, so I'm not sure she counts, and I wouldn't really have mentioned her except that she is so much like the other BYB I know in personalality...

The other one is my ex-best friend.  Granted she hasn't bred her yet, but she has decided that she wants to breed her husky mutt to another husky mutt.  When I questioned her on it, she got offended and told me she WANTED to do it and that was good enough reason.  She also loves her dogs temperment and wants one just like her, only braver and less 'flighty' and calmer...?  So I'm not really sure what she likes about her dog's temperment. And she thinks that breeding her will calm her down.  She has lost 3 dogs in the last year, one to Blasto, one ran away and one got hit, so I'm not sure what she's thinking.  When I asked her why she didn't just adopt an adult dog with a temperment that she liked, she told me she couldn't cause we don't have a humane society here anymore...  She was happy being friends with us until we quit being the bar scene regulars.  Then she dumped us and took up with a crowd 10 years younger.  She also tried her best to get in with her little sister's friends somewhere between that.

In short, both of the breeders I know are spoiled brats that really want to be in with the cool kid crowds.  Maybe its just a coincidence.  I dunno. I doubt all BYB's are like this, but perhaps people like this are more likely to become BYB's.  Its an interesting thought.

timsdat

Liesje

If you're selling dogs to make money, then you are a puppy mill, period.  I don't care how much you love your dogs or how many titles they have.  In my mind, breeding dogs for commercial reasons = puppy mill, every time.

Is that "breeding to make money" or "breeding and making money". Or do these 2 statements mean the same thing, 

Also "commercial reasons".  Selling 1 dog makes that a commercial transaction so I guess what that means is that anyone who sells a dog is a puppy miller???

 

Commercial reasons being, the sole reason the dogs were bred was to make money off the puppies.  To me the two statements mean the same thing.  I'm not saying dogs should be cheap or free, but if someone breeds to pay for a cottage or lease a second car, I don't think they should be breeding.  If a breeder has a larger than usual litter from two proven, titled dogs and comes out a thousand bucks ahead and puts that money into doing an extra show with their dogs, I'm cool with that.  I want a breeder that has a very developed program.  If they are charging slightly more than what it costs them during the pregnancy, birth, and first few months of life and putting money back into their program, I'm fine with that.  I'm thinking more in terms of the aggregate, not just a single transaction for a single puppy. 
 

I know a woman who owns a male miniature pinscher who asked me if I would let my female breed with her male.  I asked her why she wanted to breed him, she said "because my mother wants one just like him"  I tried explaining to her that no matter how hard she tried, she would never get a dog just like hers.  She then said to me, "well, if we breed, the only thing I am asking for is a chocolate male."  I tried explaining to her that my red and her chocolate would not likely create any chocolates because my red does not have chocolate in her line.  She asked me many questions, stated many things, she didn't know anything about the breed and she knows nothing about breeding whatsoever. 

 This is the type of person that I did not, nor would I ever, allow my female to mate with.  I have bred a couple litters, but it was after long deliberation of the stud, looking in to the stud's gene pool and my female's gene pool before ever even considering the mating.  I don't call my self anything. I do not believe Hobby Breeder fits me nor does Backyard Breeder fit me.  My dogs are my pets!  End of story!  I have four min pins, 2 of which are altered, 2 of which are unaltered because I show them in conformation.  I am not in search of love, or accolades, nor do I buy friendship by giving things away to those I want to be friends with.  I am just me, a person in love with min pins and who loves her dogs as if they were her children.

When I look for a breeder/Dogs I look for the following

1. Someone who has been doing the breeding and raising of these animals for 15years+.

2. That the grounds they are kept on are 120% perfection.

3. That all there animals are in good health.

4. That the breeder does not have more then 2 different breeds of dogs.

5. I wont look at a puppy thats for less then 1000$.

6. I want to see the Reg papers, Shot records, And a vet check withen the last 3months. If I am buying a puppy I want to make sure the female was tested by a vet* not a friend* to make sure both the female and male where passable for a breeding.

7. And if theres No contract, its a no go. If they dont offer a life time health+, I wont buy.

8. That the puppys have had all there shots.

9. I call there vet and double check over there records.

10. If I dont like the parents, Its a no go.

Sad to say but after raising dogs for the last 15 years, 90% of the breeders I run across do not live up to my list. And if they cant I assume they are BYB or Hobby Breeders.

OkielaPitmomma

Sad to say but after raising dogs for the last 15 years, 90% of the breeders I run across do not live up to my list. And if they cant I assume they are BYB or Hobby Breeders.

Be sure to read the earlier posts.  Maybe this is different for different breeds, but at least for German Shepherds "hobby breeders" are the GOOD, reputable breeders.

I think this is a pretty good summary:

http://www.24kgsd.com/articles/HowToSelectABreeder.html 

Back Yard Breeder.  Says it all to me.  Someone who is just throwing any old two purebreds together and popping pups out "in their backyard".

I know someone like this.  A couple of years ago now, they got a JRT pup for the other half.  A nice pup.  He wants a small dog he can take to work with him.  A JRT fits the bill.  After a bit, he no longer takes her to work.  She is "too much bother" (she is not trained).  She's a girl, so she's going to have puppies some day.  That's it.  No justification.  They can, so they are going to. Why not after all? 

Next he decides he wants a dog he can take shooting with him.  Well, a JRT is no good.  So, JRT becomes the wife's dog and he gets a black lab pup to be "his" dog.  She's a pedigree ***, and supposedly from good lines too (£400 from a newspaper ad) so naturally she will have puppies as well. 

Neither of them have done any reserach on JRTs or black labs, breeding or genetics, they know nothing about the family tree of either dog, tehy wouldn't know the Lab standard if it jumped up and bit them in the bum, and I doubt they'd know what a whelping box was if you hit them with it.  Both work full time, neither is home during the day.  The daughter is proudly telling folks that they are going to be "breeders of jack russels and labradors".

As to theworkings of their minds... Well I think this bloke fancies himself a country gent.  He wants to sell the house they have and get another in the countryside, with land.  I think he can just SEE himself strolling down a country lane with a gun over his arm and a couple of labs trotting obediently at his heels.  I don't know WHY... best I can come up with is because deep down he's a bit of a snob.  He fancies himself better than everyone else.  He'd never tell people he was producing more unwanted puppies from unproven parents to line his pockets, but he WILL tell people that he's a "breeds jack russels and labradors".  It SOUNDS good doesn't it?

Chuffy that man sounds like my ex boss.... also considers himself a country gent type.... he had one old mongrel dog that was an aussie/pit bull mix and he allowed her to breed any time.. he didnt stop it OR encourage it. i have to admit the pups were cute - some of them were born with tails, without tails, or half tails, not to mention they were black and tan, or black, tan and brindle, or completely white.... and the sire was always a doberman. i got a puppy when i first started working for this guy. i loved that dog so much too.. he was smart, beautiful, loyal, and i was proud to have him (except for that time he stampeded a herd of cows through a fence) but YES i got him neutered! it was the best thing i could have done for him while living in that place. The father of my dog belonged to the tenant next door to us. he got his dog neutered as soon as he found out that he had impregnated "that scrappy little mutt". his dog was ancient so his owner's intention was to breed him one time to one of my boss's dobie girls so he could get a pup.. which he did.. and i gotta say it.. Pepper(the puppy) was the one that had all the neat ideas for trouble... i.e. stampeding cattle(and thankfully she was spayed the same time my dog got neutered)...  but the rest of the mixed pups from both litters werent so lucky with finding good homes. the mixes from A.P.(the aussie mix mom) were given away to anyone who wanted one.. or they were taken to the horse auction for anyone to pick out of a box. the extra dobies were sold for $20 a piece... at one point an entire litter of aussie mixes went completely feral. you couldnt get near them once they turned 5 months old. and if you did manage to catch one you had a fight on your hands - literally.. they would bite, scratch and scream like a wild animal.. Well no one wanted a dog they couldnt catch or pet.. so  he put food inside his horse trailer.. puppies ran inside to eat when the coast was clear, and he shut the door on them, drove them all to a local landfill and turned them loose..... after that episode i quit and moved away. this man(if you could call him that) was the sort that assumed everyone liked him.. he was pompous, he bragged, and was callous to lesser creatures (including people!) and the oddest thing i discovered was that every doberman was docked and cropped. he spent the  money to chop off the wrong parts in my opinion....
but his parents were soooo nice! (they were our landlords) it was hard to believe they had raised two bratty snobby kids.. their daughter was a cat breeder.... she had the audacity to complain when she paid to have three tiny Himalayan kittens shipped cross country only to have one die and the other two become deathly ill. the last time i was there she had two mother cats and too many kittens to count. she "paid" me once to clean her house... while dodging her drunk son's attention i had to clean up after all the cats - good lord, all the poop UNDER the beds! and you know what she "paid" me? a discount in her hand me down odds and ends store.... now maybe i was naive... i was 18 at the time... but when someone says "I'll pay you to do this" ...doesnt that usually mean with money? i mean... wouldnt they um... mention the option of a discount?

well i am seeing some similarities here... Snobbish, Wants to be accepted into the Cool crowd... thats my cousin as well.... she was Miss Popular in school and in the dating scene. now she is married, living with her inlaws in an old nasty mobile home (nothing against mobile homes.. this one really IS nasty. before they moved in there were rats in all the bedrooms and still has a roach infestation) ... i dont think life panned out the way she wanted it to.