How much does breed influence behavior?

If you breed dogs who work you are far more likely to maintain instinct behavior than if you breed dogs who do not work... Case in point:  setters and bird sense;  shelties and herding;  rough collies and herding,  field verses show etc.

ORIGINAL: RobDar

in reagards to the pittie...

I guess maybe I have a somewhat different understanding of the pit bull. For me it is a question of whether aggressiveness is actually a trait pit. Their "gameness" as it was referred to, as far as I am concerned, is not really aggressiveness as much as it is a certian tenacity and dominance. I do not feel being aggresive and being a tenacious are really the same thing. I feel aggression in ANY breed is a flaw...but I understand aggression to be a unpredictable and unwarranted behavior. I do not feel that this is actually a trait of the pit bull...their trait is to be a dominant, protective, tenacious dog with a very limited tolerance for being bullied...
as far as I am concerned that is most terriers...

as far as breeding for aggression...I do not know how to answer that...
Can you breed for agression? Can you breed for hunting skill? Does breeding two really good hunters guarantee good hunting pups???
I think it increases the likelihood, but I am not convinced that there is any certianty you will get good hunters. There are too many variables in a dog's behavior, as far as I am concerned, to say that breeding to aggressive pits will produce aggrressive pups. I think it is more likely that raising pups with aggressive dogs will produce aggression in the pups.

You are right, BUT the nature part comes in BEFORE the nurture part (ETA: I know, duh, right?!). There are people who have had WONDERFUL environments for their APBT pups. Their pups have grown up around a TON of animals and have loved every single one of them. Then all of a sudden, one day, when the pup has now matured to adult age, the dog no longer enjoys these animals and turns on them. Or starts to. And starts to get bitchy with them (sometimes at best). It'll remain a mystery to me, as far as how it happens that some turn dog/animal aggressive and others never do. I think the pit bull community might take it to an extreme (me definitely being one of them) by stating that it will happen and treating the dog as though it will happen. That is all because of the bad rap these dogs have gotten so we're extra watchful with our dogs and truthful when talking about the breed. It's better to be safe than sorry. Because sorry can happen SOOO fast.

And trust me, I have reason to be as serious about this as I am.

chewbecca-that kind of reminds me about wolves. When people rasie them or the mixes they raised them up good but the wolf has a huge chance of turning shy or agressive when it gets older.Not that it'll always happen.

Thanks for listing those breed standards Gina []


I agree with MRV - I would hate to see all the differences breed out of all breeds. Personally, I was drawn to the characteristics of JRT for a reason. It doesn't bother me that all dogs are not suitable for all people. I love to see the differences in all the breeds and how their instincts can be so different. However that being said I also think when a person decides to get a dog that may be more aloof and more prone to aggression they should be responsible for that dog and mak sure that dog is socialized properly and does not hurt another dog.

i will offer one niave opinion on working breeds, i feel they have a tendency to be over protective in family situatuons more so than any other.

other than that i can only offer my opinions on hunting breeds and hounds since i have the most experience with them. i feel they are the least agressive of breeds. i trust them more than i do other breeds. i think they have fewer health issues. to me they are "doggy" dogs. i find them not necassarily to be the friendliest, but more approachable in general. i feel they bark more as an alert, "i see you", "theres a person coming", than they do out of fear or aggression.

i think breed has a huge impact on behavior, different breeds are bred to do different things and act in different ways. my bird mix is not comprised of breeds that protect or serve and he has never shown any tendencies to do so. it is safe to assume part of that is due to his upbringing, but i feel other breeds may have grown to be more protective of the household if raised in the same situation. i attribute my dogs aloof sleepy attitude to his breed as well. he's beagle/brittany/setter by the way.

ORIGINAL: gaylemarie
other than that i can only offer my opinions on hunting breeds and hounds since i have the most experience with them. i feel they are the least agressive of breeds. i trust them more than i do other breeds. i think they have fewer health issues. to me they are "doggy" dogs. i find them not necassarily to be the friendliest, but more approachable in general. i feel they bark more as an alert, "i see you", "theres a person coming", than they do out of fear or aggression.

 
The Hounds ( hunting breeds of hound at any rate) are typically more cooperative and less aggressive because they were bred to work in a group of other dogs. This breeding offers them a more cooperative demaenor. Though I will say that as we have watched the Beagle climb the "popular breed" list for 112th most popular to 5th most popular over the last 11 years...we have as well watched their behavior ( and health) decline. When we first began rescuing Beagles in our area they were nearly all hunting dogs. We would bring them here to the rescue with a group of other Beagles and they acted like it was freaking Club Med....it was PARTY TIME!!!! Now, we get as many dogs that do not get along with the other dogs or are timid than we dogs who get along well.
 
I am going to hear it about this part...
(keep in mind I am not referring to all breeders here...there are good breeders out there) The health...
The health of alot of the hunting hound breeds remains strong because a large portion of the the hunting hound breeds are still bred by hunters for hunting. There are too many breeders breeding for looks and comformation...the hunters breed for skill and function. The long and short of it is...a hunter cannot run a sick dog...and the hunters have an advantage breeders do not have....a tight knit community. If a hunter sells another hunter a dog that ends up with a health issue, you better believe there are phone calls made and complaints filed. In that way the hunters really know where and how the pups they have bred are doing.
I would rather have a UKC hunting pup than an AKC registered breeders pup any day.
My male Beagle is from hunting stock...a bloodline called Tate's Blueblood Beagles...and my vet once said ( after one of his many stupid manauvers that sent him to the vet) that..."Good lord this dog is bulletproof!
We handle ALOT of both Beagles and Coonhounds every year...and with the exception of some nuisance problems like skin infections, ear infections,  and that kind of thing...the hunting dogs are typically stronger, better tempered, and healthier than the "pet bred" dogs.
In the future when we are ready for another dog of our own...it will be a senior rescue ( the senior dogs are just the best)..but if we were to look for a pup...I would get a pup from hunting stock. They may not be the prettiest dogs sometimes, but they are usually healthy and well tempered.

RobDar, I agree with you entirely. Breeding for looks only is the downfall of many a breed, and then you get stuff like what has happened to the beagle in which nothing in particular is even bred for any more, not looks, not health, not temperment, the only goal is to create more beagles. Twice this weekend I saw dogs that looked like they may have been beagles but they were so ridiculously ill-bred that it was honestly hard to tell. Is it a basset? Is it a beagle? Who can tell anymore?

While I may malign some sectors of the hunting community for how they treat their dogs, one thing I will say is those dogs are bred for health and temperment, and to be bullet-proof in both areas. Marlowe is indestructible health-wise (and I've got the vet bills to prove it) and bomb-proof temperment wise. His breeder did an excellent job and RobDar I'll tell you right now that if you ever get a black & tan through your rescue with the initials WKG tattooed in their ear, please contact me immediately.

And maybe you can enlighten me about one thing that I've wondered about. In some of the coonhound breed descriptions I've read it mentions that these dogs can be somewhat dominant in personality and may not get along with other dogs. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a serious detriment to a working coonhound? Shouldn't that trait be fairly rare in these breeds? I was pretty surprised to read this in more than one place because my impression is that the pack hounds must be able to work closely and cooperatively with other hounds. Being overly dominant or grumpy about other dogs would seem to be fairly counter-productive.

I would rather have a UKC hunting pup than an AKC registered breeders pup any day.

Everyone is free to decide the best place to buy their pups...personally I am firmly addicted to show Beagle lol.
 
My observation based on what we see with the Beagle and popularity (referring to those Beagles owned as PETS)...the temperaments are becoming bad for sure...and health things are popping up more frequently.
 
But to say this is because of breeding for the show ring is a bit silly considering the show Beagles are by far the minority of those being bred, and coming into rescue for that matter.
 
It is because of breeding...period. Too much, by too many people, for too many reasons..
 

and then you get stuff like what has happened to the beagle in which nothing in particular is even bred for any more, not looks, not health, not temperment, the only goal is to create more beagles.

Houndlove....I too have seen "Beagles????" lol...and I can tell you...if you dig a bit deeper...into the source of the stock for the typical BYB'er for Beagles...it would be very telling.
 
And to prevent this from becoming yet another "show dogs are the root of all evil thread"...I will point out that the topic was "breed influencing behavior, and to what extent".....

Is there a set of traits within the "groups" of dogs (think herding working sporting etc)?  What common traits do you associate with both and how much variability do you believe is there?

RobDar....excellent job of showing what I mean..."spectrum" of the same basic behavior common within a breed, expressing more or less depending on the line and the person breeding it.

I also think when a person decides to get a dog that may be more aloof and more prone to aggression they should be responsible for that dog and mak sure that dog is socialized properly and does not hurt another dog.

 
HOW do you assure this...indeed happens, I got nuthin...very frustrating issue...lol.

has anone else noticed we are getting a little of topic here...LOL!!!
For houndlove...you asked...
And maybe you can enlighten me about one thing that I've wondered about. In some of the coonhound breed descriptions I've read it mentions that these dogs can be somewhat dominant in personality and may not get along with other dogs. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a serious detriment to a working coonhound? Shouldn't that trait be fairly rare in these breeds? I was pretty surprised to read this in more than one place because my impression is that the pack hounds must be able to work closely and cooperatively with other hounds. Being overly dominant or grumpy about other dogs would seem to be fairly counter-productive.
 
this is somewhat of a complex question that is a bit difficult to answer...
If you read the info on our website it says that the Coonies will not tolerate being bullied by other dogs...which is not really the same as being dominant ( in my eyes). Alot of Coonies have a aloof manner about them...like Ranger...I refer to him as "management". The rest of the dogs are labor and staff...he is management. He does not dominate the other dogs, he just keeps this kind of "professional distance" from all the going's on.
They are referred to as dominant usualy because they are a bit stubborn and...quite frankly...have some expectations of how they should be treated. Coonhounds do best in environments where they can live cooperatively with others ( dogs and people alike)...both sides making some compromises to make the relationship work. In an environment where a Coonie feels they are being disrespected or someone ( people or dog) is trying to dominate them...they will push back. They will resist being dominated. ( is that the same as being dominant??? I do not know)They are strong willed, but not usually dominant unless they feel dominated. The best explanation comes from Beth Stiller from Dixie Coonhound Rescue...
"A coonhound will not ever start a problem...but when pushed will FINISH it"
This goes for people as well as other dogs. It is very difficult to break the spirit or the will of a Coonhound ( not that I have not seen it done unfortumately) ...if that makes them dominant maybe I should concede...but I do not feel that makes them dominant. I would not even call them forceful...but they do have expectations. I feel there is a difference between strong willed and dominant. A Pittie is dominant...Rotts can be dominant...Coonhounds are usually just too darn arrogant to be bothered with it all.
 
you said that they are pack hounds and should work cooperatively...and this is true...and is true of most Coonies...but keep in mind that the coonie fully understands the difference between a "professional working relationship" and a "friendship" as it were...
I will use the Beagle as a comparison...Beagles typically enjoy the company of other Beagles...when they go hunting they are like a bunch of college buddies on spring break. The Coonhound experience is more like a business trip.
 
I am not sure that made any sense....
 
though there has been some issue taken with some hunters actually breeding for dominant dogs. They want their dog to "control the tree" when game is found. They want the dog to have "fire" when they tree game. Some hunt clubs have even gone to offering points on hunting scores to dogs who do have this "fire" or "control a tree"...it is unfortunate and has raised the instances of dominant and aggressive Coonhounds ( an aggressive cooonhound...hard to believe huh?...but we do see it from time to time). 
 
I will watch for the WKG marking...actually added to our database. we typically check every Coonie and most Beagles for markings. 
 
 

I said nothing about breeding for show...
I should have clarified I guess...I said for conformation...and I can see why that was misunderstood...I meant this much more generaly than it reads. I meant this more to agree with your statement that there is too much breeding period...too much breeding that ignores kill and functions...regardless of whether that is for pets, for show,  or by commercial breeders breeding for pet stores...
 
as far as your statement about this becoming a "show dogs are the root of all evil" theme...I think you are reading words into the post that are not intended. ( which is my fault for not wording my post better)
 
I take no issue with show dogs or dogs bred to conformation with their health and function in mind...in fact I wish that the ONLY SOURCE for the American public were breeders like that...I wish it were impossible to buy uppies out of the newspaper and off of Craigs Lists. I have friends who are breeders...I take no issue with breeding...I take no issue with buying a dog from a breeder...so long as that breeder has the health and welfare of their breed and their breeds future in mind.
Professional breeders are one of the few sources of good quality genetic stock being reintroduced into bloodlines. Without them, many dog breeds would be even more "genetically ill" than they are presently. Do not think that because I am a rescuer I do not appreciate the importance of what breeders like yourself are doing. I am not one of those crazy unrealistic rescuers with a chip on my shoulder. I love the Beagle and the Coonhound...in all of their facets..be it hunting dog, housepet, or show dog...I love these darn hounds. Anyone in any facet or occupation that is doing good for houndy dogs...hunter, breeder, or rescuer, is just fine by me!
I do not rescue these dogs because I am in a "fight against the tyranny of animal oppression" or some other worthless animal rightist malarkey....I rescue them because I have a passion for the breeds. Do good by the breed and it is all good by me!
( hey that ryhmed)

RobDar, I actually have more questions/comments for you but I'm going to start a thread over in the Breed Discussion>Individual Breeds area because we're getting way OT here!

well, we've all seen the "is this kind of dog for you?" questionaire that a lot of breeders have, of course those questionaires, aside from temperament, cover excecise needs, financial responsibilities associated with each breed etc.

Aside from the needs and characteristics that ALL dogs have, every breed has its own set of needs and characteristics. The comment about breeding out aggresiveness out of the akitas and APBTs, brings up someting I've become familiar with. While looking for a Fila breeder I came across two types of breeders, those who are purists and belive that if you're not breeding a dog to the original standard you shouldn't breed at all, and the more pragmatic ones that do realize that breeding to the original standard may pose a threat to the breed itself. For my dog I went with a breeder that realized that breeding Filas to their original standard would severely narrow the number of suitable owners, and saw that as a long term danger for the entire breed, so he started breeding accordingly.

While it is true that blaming the breed for any problems that may arise is irresponsible, I believe that people should be aware of the breed's traits in order to be able to raise the dog properly. But at the end of the day the genetic imprint of a dog cannot be ignored when talking about its behaviour.

I don#%92t think people should be breeding out aloofness or protectiveness.  I think someone already said this but think it needs to be said again.  “I don#%92t want to have golden retrievers in different shapes sizes and colors”  That Ridgeback breeder should be shot!!!  Get a different breed if you don#%92t like aloofness or protectiveness.  I pretty much agree with RobDar on what he has stated.