How do you decide...(Ratsicles)

I think that's a decision you, your husband, and Ogre will have to come to. You've all been trying hard. It might be that there's somebody who really wants an Akita, nearby, and just doesn't have the time for a young dog, or has beautiful carpets and doesn't want a puppy piddling, and would be *perfect* for Ogre.

I think you've all worked very hard, and it's become a very stressful situation for everybody involved. Sometimes, it's better just to give everybody some relief.  

Someone just posted on craigslist about all the retarded reasons people give for giving up their pets, but this actually seems like the first legit one I've seen. I don't even want to think about how hard it must be to have to make that decision but it seems like the right one for you. I juts wonder why he's taking out his aggression on the other animals from the move... Like he blames them or something? I have no idea...

*edited*

I think a lot of the timing on this was equally related to the move and the 'new' wearing off and Ogre becoming comfortable in your home, and I think you've made a great effort to get him to fit in (although as a long-time rat owner, I do question why he would have had access to your rat cages at all, especially since he'd previously broken into one. Even Indy can break into rat cages and Ogre is significantly larger and stronger). But you can't fit a round peg in a square hole- this dog isn't going to fit in your household, and you're not propsoing (I don't think) to dump him at the shelter because he's not fitting in.

 Talk to your local Akita rescue. You'll probably need to foster him for them, but most breed rescues will help. I think Ogre is going to be a great dog for someone- it's just not going to be you or someone in your situation.
 

besides the obvious changes... what routines have changed for him and could you possibly bring them back? walking at certain times of day?

We haven't changed any routines for him. We were careful to make sure he was fed at the same times of day, and exercised at the same times of day. We tried to make this move as smooth for all of my dogs as possible. As smooth as it was for my other dogs, it wasn't smooth enough for Ogre.

scheduled play time to blow off steam? if you know the breed then you know its a hunting dog.... Ogre is turning into a primal dog. like you said about a kid in a candy store... the temptation is far too much. Also you feed raw, correct? maybe he likes the diet a little too much. maybe thats what old timers mean when they say it will ruin a dog if it tastes blood.

so.. yeah my main questions are playtime and what type of play do you do with him?

Ogre gets at least 2-3 hours of scheduled exercise and play time a day, dedicated to ONLY him, at the detriment to my other dogs, in an attempt to help him find another outlet for his frustrations. I walk him at least a mile, which isn't long enough for him- so then I bring him home and do stuff with him. We did flirtpole for a while until I realized it increased his prey drive (duh) so we started playing fetch games and that kind of thing until he wears himself out. He gets PLENTY of exercise.

As for raw feedings? Yes, my dogs do get SOME raw meals. Ogre actually doesn't. I tried for a time to incorporate raw into his diet but he's just too sensitive to handle it so he doesn't get raw. Honestly, I don't buy into the whole "raw meat increases prey drive" thing. Butter eats alot of raw, and he actually lets our chickens roost with him. Chief eats alot of raw, and he interacts with our chickens and goats just fine. In my experience, dogs are pretty good at differentiating between dead things you hand them and the live animal, even if it's a dead chicken with the feathers still on. Butter has been eating whole dead chickens since he was a young puppy- feathers, heads, and all- and like I said, it wouldn't even OCCUR to him that he could kill them.

Ogre doesn't eat what he kills. He shakes it, tosses it, and never looks at it again.

Honestly i think he can be saved and still live with you, buts its going to be a ton of work (isnt it always though?) its not going to be easy but it IS possible to have a happy Ogre and small animals. the constant confinement, as we know, is frustrating to a dog... so i say have some scheduled time where its just you and Ogre in a special room in the house with no other pets.

No, I really don't think having a happy Ogre is possible at this point. This isn't JUST a "he likes to hunt" issue. Ogre is jealous of the attention the other animals get. Period. Yes, prey drive is a huge factor, but the deciding thing is that Ogre is NOT happy having to share us with all of the other animals. Ogre wants to be the center of attention, bottom line. He can't be, so he's pissed. When there are only a few animals around, Ogre is fine. When there are more, his stress level rises and with it his unpredictability.

I'm not "blaming" Ogre for any of this. I'm certainly not blaming him for having a high prey drive. But there's prey drive, and there's prey drive- CULLEY has a prey drive that is actually higher than Ogre's. I can DEAL with a high prey drive dog. The difference here? With Culley, we sat down, worked on it, and so far it has never been an issue again. If I see Culley getting too focused on a small animal, all I have to do is say "Hey Culley. Leave it." and he goes off and has a nap. With Ogre, if I say "Hey Ogre. Leave it." he looks at me like I'm an idiot and keeps doing what he's doing. NO amount of practice has made a difference. When we're training, he's perfect. When we're not, he doesn't care.

We've done ALOT to work with Ogre on this, (there's a thread about what all I've been doing somewhere, and even that doesn't contain everything) and I agree with you- eventually I probably COULD force him to do what I said and leave everything alone. I can force him to mind me and be miserable living here. But why? He doesn't like this situation and neither do I. He wants to be the only dog and the center of attention. If I can find that for him, why shouldn't I?

You know, back when you were thinking about bringing Ogre home, people warned you about the prey drive and animal aggression issues that Akitas can have and the intense time and energy they can take to train, even compared to toher large, strong prey-driven dogs . You felt strongly at the time that based on Ogre at the shelter, that this would not be the case with him. I'm sorry you were wrong.

Um, sorry, but I started posting on this forum like a month after I had already gotten Ogre, so no, no one warned me until long after I had already brought him home. I don't know how many times I can say it- we were NOT in this situation when we got Ogre. I had always wanted a small farm, but I honestly didn't expect to be able to afford one until MUCH later down the road- certainly not a year later. When this opportunity came up, we jumped at the chance- and please, PLEASE - tell me what indication we had that Ogre would behave this way upon moving? He had lived with other dogs, tons of rodents, and chickens for a good while with NO ISSUE. If someone can tell me how I could have forseen this with a dog that, up until this point, let baby chicks climb and play on his back, I would LOVE to hear it. I get alot of people telling me that I somehow did something wrong here or that I'm a bad person because my dog suddenly developed these issues and despite vets, behaviorists, and months of work, I haven't been able to make headway on the issue. If someone will please tell me WHAT I have done wrong here, I would LOVE to hear it...because I honestly don't get it. I adopted a dog on death row from a high kill shelter, a breed that does NOT do well in shelters, turned him from a snappy fear aggressive mess into a wonderful dog, and then after a move he suddenly developed some serious issues. Rather than dumping him, I took him to vets and had him tested for everything under the sun, attempted to train him myself, attempted to manage him and keep him seperate when training didn't work, hired a behaviorist who did nothing just like I figured, and rearranged my entire life to accomodate him. Now that it isn't working, I am trying to find him a good home with owners who know his issues and can provide him with what he needs- rather than dumping him at a shelter. Someone please, please, PLEASE tell me what I did wrong here? I just plain do not get it.

I've gotten the vibe from some people that maybe I shouldn't have other animals if Ogre can't deal with them- but you know, I had ALOT of these other animals before Ogre came along. Some of my rats and some of my chickens at least I have had longer than Ogre. I was not going to forgo the relaization of my childhood dream to have a farm in order to appease one dog. I was not going to dump all of my other happy, well adjusted animals for one dog. Why should all of the other animals give up their homes and have their lives turned upside down to appease Ogre? Why is his happiness mor eimportant than theirs?

I think a lot of the timing on this was equally related to the move and the 'new' wearing off and Ogre becoming comfortable in your home, and I think you've made a great effort to get him to fit in (although as a long-time rat owner, I do question why he would have had access to your rat cages at all, especially since he'd previously broken into one. Even Indy can break into rat cages and Ogre is significantly larger and stronger).

I don't think so, because we had Ogre for 8 months before this came up, and he had already become comfortable in our old home. When we got him, he had never been inside a house before. We had to house train him, teach him obedience, teach him what household objects were, teach him NOT to bit strangers, teach him to be a family pet in general. We worked very hard with him and he was very comfortable with us. He was happy and he trusted us. He hated the move and the sudden influx of other animals. I hate it for him, but I have wanted this my whole life- call me selfish, but I sacrifice ALOT for my pets and this is one thing that I just won't. I have to draw the line somewhere.

As for the rat cages? I, too am a long time rat owner. I have owned rats for over ten years, am an extremely responsible rat owner, and have been involved in the rat community for quite some time. We probably know alot of the same people. Please, feel free to visit some rat forums (you can start on MY pet rat forum listed in my profile) and look at my post history to see what kind of rat owner I am. If Rat Palace were still up I'd say check there, but it isn't- so feel free to poke around elsewhere if you're curious.

My rat cages were on high tables in my house. Ogre never looked at them until a few weeks ago.=. After he get into the cage once, we locked the rest of my rats in what is now my cat room. We installed a metal plate on the back of the door in case he chewed through the door, a chain link gate inside of that. He chewed through the door (which we have had to replace) peeled back the metal, and jumped over the 5 ft chain link gate. He did this when I stepped outside for a few minutes to feed the horses. I guess he should have been crated when I was outside, but I honestly didn't see him getting through the barrier- would you have?

Again, don't see what more I could have done in any of these situations.

I think the rest of us DO know you well, and we remember and are well-informed about the incredible lengths you've gone to in this.

In complete honesty, I think this truly comes down to the logical decision that ONE animal out of many in a household (including the two humans) shouldn't completely negate the peace and harmony the rest have achieved.  Particularly in light of the fact that he's not happy in any scenario. 

I honestly think he IS a good dog but he simply needs to be elsewhere and let all get on with their lives. 

I truly don't mean to be at all dis-respectful when above I compared it to my own divorce.  We humans are convinced that sometimes divorce is necessary -- and hopefully not until there is a HUGE effort made to restoring what harmoney we thought was there when we first began the relationship.  So we get the divorce and go on.

WHY would we pile tons of crap on a dogowner for re-homing a dog who simply isn't happy despite months and months of coping, trying, training, and sheer herculean effort??  for two more humans and a host of other animals AND the dog in question to all be happy simply takes re-homing that one dog?

Don't even feel a twinge ratsicles -- if humans tried as hard to get along with each other as YOU **all** have tried to get along with one dog, the divorce rate would fall unbelievably and millions of divorce attorneys would starve!!!  But there would be SOME who would still have to divorce.  and no one should look sideways at anyone.

As far as *I* am concerned, your efforts have been incredible and highly laudable.  Beyond that don't seek more validation -- if you read the above, minus a couple that didn't have facts right -- you have it.

In my very humble opinion, you have worked so hard and I secretly wondered how long this would last and how well it would work. Re-homing might be the best thing and it sounds like your leaning toward that direction. Even better if it's with people he already knows. I support your decision and agree that whatever is best for Ogre is what should be done. No back-seat driving, no 20/20 hindsight, just whatever is best for him and, of course, best for all concerned. And maybe, you will still get to visit with him, now and then.

And I know many of us have said don't do this or that unless you've got the commitment, skills, money, whatever. You've taken on a lot more than most people would and you've used every good thing you can think of. But, as DPU might say (my apologies in advance if I misspeak), it's one thing to hand out advice, it's another when it's you in the actual situation.

I know your heart is breaking but I know it can heal if you know he's in a good place.

Big hug and a doggy slobber.

calliecritturs

Beyond that don't seek more validation -- if you read the above, minus a couple that didn't have facts right -- you have it.

Exactly. Those that don't have the facts right or just need to have their "dig". Listen to the majority that is supporting you and forget about those who need to say "I told you so" or whatever. Trust me. Take the support you have and run with it. You're not going to get 100% no matter what you say and that 2% has nothing to do with you - or how hard you've tried or how much you love your animals. It's not about you at all...

Ohh, well said Carla!!  and well said Ron

calliecritturs

Ohh, well said Carla!!  and well said Ron

ditto what calliecritturs said!

you, and only you can make the right decision. You know exactly what your dog needs, and how to give him what he needs. I see dogs turned in on a daily basis for the worst reasons ever, sheds too much, does not match the furniture, after 10 years of owning this dog, I can no longer care for him.

Your situation does not fit in with the normal I don't wany my dog situations. I would lable yours more as a I love my dog enough that I know what he needs is not what I can give him. Some dogs just do better in a home with no other animals. While they may love to go to the park, at the end of the day they just want it to be them and their master. It just depends on the dog, and Ogre sounds like one of these dogs.

Good luck with what you decide to do! Let me know if you need anything, to talk, rescue contacts, anything, I'm just a PM away. =]

You have to think about Ogre, but you also have to think about the safety and well being of your entire animal family.

For me, it isn't fair that one member pose a dedicated threat to a large portion of my household.  Ogre's life matters, but so do the lives of the animals he's killed, and the animals he may yet kill.

It isn't his "fault."  He is who he is, with his instincts and drives.  But *he* isn't happy with the situation, and your other pets are at risk of death.  No one is winning.  He needs a new home.

I commend you for the lengths you've gone to.  You have clearly worked your tush off.  Its so hard.  I've had a dog live under 24/7 control, and it takes more time and energy than most people imagine.  So my respect is genuine   

You have not failed.  You can't be every thing to every one.  No human being can.  Ogre needs something different.  Help him find it.  

 Respectfully, I think you really need to spend some time on Ogre without adding new animals to your household for at least a little while longer. Personally, I think it's very unfair to him to consider rehoming him at the same time you are obtaining new animals, even if they're different species, even if they're for different "purposes," and even if you think you're still giving Ogre 100% of your attention. In my opinion, you owe it to him to put him before any other animals you might want to get.

Just my opinion, you don't need to justify yourself to me or anyone else. Just please think about it?

Best wishes to Ogre, you, and the rest of your family.
 

As I read it, she hasn't added any new animals, she's had rats for years. Personally, when a dog is driven enough to work their way through metal plating in a matter of minutes in order to get to another pet, I'd not ever be comfortable leaving them loose in a house again. And, if there's a home out there that wouldn't require him to be crated/tethered/managed constantly, or in a constant state of stress, why not give him that chance?

 Just because a fellow pet is small and considered a 'prey' animal, doesn't make their safety any less important. I have to wonder if he were clawing through a door to maim her chihuahua, how many of those who've judged would do so quite as harshly. 

 No one likes to rehome a pet, and I've been lucky to have never had to, but sometimes certain homes aren't suitable to certain dogs, and in those situations, it benefits all, and especially the dog, to help them find a home where they'd thrive

I would have re-homed him ages ago.  You have gone through so much and tried so many different things.  It just isn't working.  You need to find Ogre a home where he will be happy and restore peace to your household.

 I would do this ASAP, personally.