I don't know what to do

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't know what to do

    regarding Molly. I am at a total loss and it's breaking my heart

    Her aggressiveness is getting worse and worse.

    I just brought her home from the shelter's woofstock event. We were there 1/2 hour. Last year we stayed all day and she was fine. She just keeps getting worse and worse as time goes on.

    I can't socialize her cause she goes ballistic - bikes, kids on skateboards, oh and the one that really embarrasses me is babies in stroller. It's so "comforting" to be walking a child in a stroller and have a dog going nuts.

    I've done the behaviorist thing and the stuff he suggested (making her wait to go out when we let her, making her sit and only letting her eat when we tell her she can, etc.) is no problem....she'll sit by the open door forever and sit by a full dish forever (she's not very food motivated anyway).

    I called my vet a couple of weeks ago nearly in tears cause I simply do not know what to do anymore. I called him looking for suggestions on medication and he mentioned Composure Liquid and it is helping with her in-house anxiety and OCD behaviors (she licks a pole in the basement). But it doesn't help outside the house. She does now eat 2 meals a day as the Composure Liquid is helping her relax enough she can let herself eat.

    We can't take her hiking cause she acts like she is going to kill anyone we meet, we take her on old logging roads and if we meet up with other people walking it is so embarrassing due to how she reacts - it scares people.

    Now I can't take her to these events I have always enjoyed.

    She has to stay home and that just breaks my heart.

    The first day we got here, when we were in the parking lot talking to Glenda's son Molly growled at a lady walking past us and I knew then we were in a bit of trouble with her.

    She is starting obdience classes in a week but gut feeling is telling me they'll ask me to leave. She used to be great with other dogs and today she was lunging at every dog in sight (why we left the shelter event before they asked me to leave).

    I think this dog would die for us...I really do but unfortunately that is not what I want in a dog!!!! And I don't know how to help her get over that, or if I can even help her get over this aggressiveness.

    I won't give her away cause she has already bitten once and she is horrible with little kids. If I had grandkids I wouldn't even try to keep Molly around. I did tell my vet I'm thinking big E is this doesn't work (sorry Glenda).

    I feel WRETCHED!!!! She will sit, stay, lay down, etc. on command - obedience isn't the problem. I can't even have company anymore. Anyone comes in and she has to be muzzled and quite often she will attempt to go after them even wearing the muzzle.

    I'm spilling my guts here....I could resort to keeping her drugged but I don't want to do that to her. I don't want to give up walkign with her, don't want to leave her home all the time.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Have you ruled out medical based issues?  Thyroid etc. 

    The medication option is one that could possibly allow more access out of the house.  She could also just be a house dog, I had one like that.  He spent the last 7 years of his life as a house dog only.  He seemed content with that.  Restricted life styles are an option for such dogs.  You also have the right to consider euthansia in the future if all else fails.

    • Puppy

    Wow. What a story. How long have you had Molly? You said she used to be great with other dogs but lunges at them now. Has anything changed since the time when she got along with other dogs? Is she more isolated now because of her behavior towards others? It sound like you have your hands full.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Have you tried Rescue Remedy or any other flower essences?

    My in-laws have a dog who acts that way in public as well--she also obsessively licks.  They have just begun with Rescue Remedy----they dose her twice a day.  It has helped tremendously with the licking and I recently took her for a nice long public walk----no incidences, even after encountering other dogs (which usually really gets her going).  I was pleasantly surprised. 

    I have another in-law who has not had any success with Rescue Remedy, but has had great success with her vet mixing up a specific formula of Flower Essences:  aspen--for confidence to face unknon fears, rock rose--for courage in panic/fear situation, and mimulus for confidence to face known fears.  It has been working great for them.

    Maybe a holistic vet can give you some more information about flower essences .  Here are a few sites to check out.

    http://www.flowersociety.org/Edstrom_Navy.htm

    http://www.bachflower.com/index.html

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Since this is a human aggressive dog with a bite history, I think she's far beyond Rescue Remedy, although it could be beneficial in conjunction with other measures. Molly needs intensive, frequent sessions with a behaviorist - someone who will be more helpful than just recommending NILIF.

    With any luck this is just a lack of training and socialization during critical periods and she is salvagable. If it turns out to be genetic unsoundness or something else that cannot be overcome than you may have to consider options such as the ones MRV suggested.

    I recently took in a dog who cannot be trusted due to a lack of socialization as a pup, made worse by the predisposition of her breed. Fortunately she is content with being confined to this house and this yard. OTOH she's an 11 year old chow - not a young german shepherd. If she wasn't content with our current situation than I would have to carefully weigh her quality of life with her issues and my liability and then make a decision, even if it was a heartbreaking one.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Molly would be down right miserible being inhouse 24/7, other than poop/pee breaks. She lives for her walks, which BTW do help calm her down but that's when we meet people and/or dogs which of course heighten her anxiety which then turns our walks into nightmares cause she simply cannot refocus on us. She remains focused on the event and getting that turned around is my goal.

    I cannot afford private sessions with the behaviorist. $100 per with the person I spoke to before and it would need to be a weekly thing until we can get her under control - if at all. I don't have that kind of money to spend weekly only to hope it'll help her.

    Our many attempts to socialize molly in the past year led to nothing - we would sit in public parks, sit outside WalMart, walk around town and although after some time she would start to relax each time we would take her out for the same routine she would act like she'd never been there before. I don't care how many kids on bikes go past her, how often, how many times she acts like it's a first each and every time.

    Trucks/cars on a dirt road and she goes after them, paved roads no problem.

    Personally I think it's breeding. And being a rescue situation no idea on her father (Glenda fostered Molly's mother). My last Shepherd spent the first 3 months of her life in a kennel with no exposure to anything other than "breeder" and dogs. We spent month socializing her and she gained a lot of confidence and trust. Socializing Molly only seems to escalate her fears and anxieties. No matter how many times we exposure her to something she only seems to get more fearful of it.

    Tried Bach's, which is why we are trying the composure liquid now. Even with terrified foster cats I've never had much luck with Bach's although it did work with my last dog for thunderstorm phobia.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    oh I've had Molly 2 years this November and she turned 2 this past July. No bad dog experiences to change her. oh and she's great with cats!!! I couldn't ask for a better dog for foster cats. Many have gone to homes with dogs and done quite well due to their positive experiences with Molly. That just makes it even more bizarre.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mary -- yeah, she's way way WAY behond just Bach's.  Now I'm reading between the lines here, but I have to wonder if this isn't more OC than behavioral.  There are times when obsession simply plays out as a 'behavior' -- and sometimes that behavior can be licking a pole -- other times it can be tripping off into anger.  I'm grabbing that by your words that you can't get her to 're-focus' on you -- it almost sounds like a seizure-related type of neural response.

    I say that BECAUSE of what we went thru with Kee Shu.  She was a little shut-down peke when we got her.  she had a number of odd air-licking type of behaviors that were MOST DEFINITELY connected with stress! 

    It took a while (months in fact) but my holistic vet (who admittedly is REALLY good with OCD and seizures) finally hit on the right combination of Chinese herbals and relaxants and I now have a bright, cheerful, happy little dog.  Take her off her herbals and she's right back to obsessing. 

    She's taking 4 separate things that are working well.  She also gets acupuncture once a month.  First I'd tell you to go to http://www.tcvm.com -- that's the Chi Institute. 

    On the left hand side is a 'locator' -- and it will find a TCVM vet in your area.  At least close enough to get to. 

    However, my vet is on the chi Institute faculty and I know you could have your vet call her -- she consults all the time like that. 

    I could go on and on with this -- but I'm gonna pm you and send you my phone number.  It might help qualify this enough for you to figure out if it would work. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    wow, i don't really have an any advice, but i hope it all works out well for you.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Teenie has almost exactly the same  behavior. I've worked and worked with her, tried all sorts of things. She has a Bach blend that helps her in the house, but not outside. I just keep her mostly confined to my house and yard. She's an old dog, though, and happy with that. At some point, if her health doesn't give first, it'll probably become a quality of life issue. It's sad to think about, but I do know what I'll have to do, if that happens. Unfortunately, I do not have access to a good vet, like Callie has. There just isn't anybody around here who does that stuff (I have an acupuncturist, but nobody to work through the herbs).

     

    I hope you can find something that works, for Molly. She's so young. It's a shame that she has to feel so agitated all the time. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I really second the suggestion for checking medical issues, especially thyroid, if you haven't already since it sounds like this change in behavior occurred over a short period of time and is so dramatic.  In addition to thyroid, I might also look at joint issues (pain) and eyesight.

     When you say behaviorist, what were their credentials?  Many people out there call themselves behaviorists without much more than hands-on education.  If you came to me with a dog exhibiting the behaviors Molly is, I'd be referring you to a *veterinary* behaviorist who has a DVM in addition to extra coursework in behavior (often a PhD).  A vet behaviorist will have you come in for an initial consult (generally expensive, but it can last upwards of 4 hours) and then follow ups further down the line (most common seems to be 4 to 6 weeks after the initial consult.  Vet behaviorists are generally found at vet schools rather than in private practice I believe.

    Has you vet looked into behavior medications rather than just some OTC solution?  It sounds like medication (in addition to behavior mod above and beyond NILF) really should be looked into since everything else hasn't been that successful.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    going to start with a thyroid check and after talking to Callie have the test sent to Dr. dodds for a more thorough exam. We'll go from there.

    After I talked to Callie my oldest son came for a visit 'oy what a nightmare. I had left Molly's muzzle in the car and as many times as she sees my oldest son (doesn't live here) she overreacts when he comes over.

    I got her to sit, stay but as soon as I tried to open the door she is lunging at it. Kevin at least understands what is going on.

    Back to sit/stay and wait a second for her to calm down, reach for door she lunges. Pull her back sit/stay, etc.

    I had to pick her up and put her in the 1/2 bath so I could go get her muzzle before Kevin could come inside!!!

    Once he was in and she realized all was well she kept bringing him toys, lay on her back so he could rub her belly. Played with him.

    I'm so confused. Oh and I have thrown out my back picking her up before (70 lb. dog). I had to once pick her up by her harness when walking her to get her into the woods so people could walk by us on a logging ROAD (not just a skinny trail). She goes beyond just a yappping dog. She is a step beyond Cujo

     

    Callie had I had a nice converation and hopefully some questions have been answered...now to see if we can work on a solution

    • Gold Top Dog

    So sorry to hear about your problems - I hope you can find the help you need.  Please update when you get the results back.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think that starting with a thyroid test is an excellent idea.  It helped with some of Sassy's aggression. I really do feel for you. Although Sassy's problems have never been as serious as Molly's, I know how the helpless feeling you have. I hope that the testing gives you something you can work with.

    • Gold Top Dog

    thank you for the support everyone..I've hesitate posting about this cause I 1/2 expected to get ripped to shreds.

    One never knows LOL but it made me nervous.

    Perhaps that was the old days on the board. But I do appreciate the thoughts, the ideas and the support. Makes a huge difference when people are posting ideas rather than condemnations.