Alternative AKC registries - ?

Long standing kennel clubs offer something the "new" registries dont.  There are events in which "Breeding" stock can be evaluated on conformation or skills related to work of some sort.  The new registries have occurred because there seems to be a common consensus that registration means better.  Nope there is paper involved in proving better but it is not really the paper of the registry involved.  It is the paper of the pedigree and the pedigrees of multiple generations before this one particular dog.  It is the paper of medical tests, it is the paper of health history beyond shot records.  It is the photo paper and video that shows this dog and its family members both stacked and in motion.  It is the paper that demonstrates skill in a variety of areas:  social behavior in the community, obedience under distraction and breed specific performance.

There is plenty of paper necessary to demonstrate you have a dog that is well bred and true to the standard.  The registries are in business.  It is the ethics of the person involved in producing the dog that matter.  So if a breeder can not tell you were ALL the puppies produced are (granted one or two might get sold out from under you when people ignore first right of refusal in contracts); if the breeder can not produce medical paperwork on multiple generations and syblings, if a breeder can not demonstrate sound temperments and livability, then the registry papers may not be worth what you paid to get them.

After reading this post I have to ask. Why are you concerned about the papers? Are you going to show, breed or compete? If not, then that is all it is, a piece of paper.

I have a purebred, bought from a breeder, I can get his papers now because I lived up to my part of the agreement, he was sold to me on limited registration. I have informed his breeder in both email and letter form with documentation of his neuter. He can send the papers or light a bon fire with em for all I care. This is my pet, a family member first and foremost. And while I toyed with the idea of doing some AKC sanctioned events, at this time in my life it is not feasible. And that is fine with me, my dog has a full brother and sister from a previous breeding that are doing very well competing, I can live through them and be happy.

The reason I went to a breeder with AKC, UKC or the registry requirerments for my dog is because I wanted a dog of my choosing to have a better than higher chance of avoiding some of the serious health issue's that my breed faces today. Finding well respected and reputable breeders in today's market is hard, extremly hard, and I think part of the problem are some of these registries, not all, but some. John Q. Public hears "papers" and they are appeased, and that is why IMO, byb flourish.

HoundMusic

     I have been known to use APRI (America's Pet Registry, Inc.) for some of my litters ... yes, I know <> Its a CLOSED registry with very reputable conformation shows that use a fair point/judging system to make a dog a champion. I've seen numerous champions from APRI & they all deserved their title. One of the reasons I offer APRI registration is because PET OWNERS are the backbone of any breed.

     So now, concrete reasons, why would the alternate registries be inherently bad? Can't they simply be alternate choices to AKC?

 Where do these alternate registries do to educate people about breeds and responsible pet ownership?  For the most part, I see nothing on their websites.  What do they do so far as legislative alerts to warn people about negative legislation headed their way?  Again, nothing.  The AKC is no longer just a registry. 

Pet owners are not the backbone of every breed, breeders are.  We are the ones who make the (hopefully) well thought out decisions as to who gets bred and with what goal in mind.  We shape the face of the breed and we are the ones who help and sometimes hurt the breed the most.   I'm a small breeder and most of my dogs do not go to pet homes, they go to working and/or show homes--where they are also pets, it's just a part of who they are.  Most pet only homes are not fit for my breed (malamutes) and I do not place them with people without mal experience.   

 APRI does grant papers to non-registered dogs, they just call it something else but in the end, it's granting papers.  I'd call that disreputable, they are devaluing good breeding programs everywhere by allowing the public to basically put all 'papered dogs' on an equal footing because "papers is papers", right?  Wrong!  They are pulling one over on the buyers of those puppies--sure, the new owners absolutely should do their homework and be able to see it for what it is but they don't.  And on their homepage mission statement, they talk about supporting the professional pet industry--hmm, what could THAT possibly mean? 

UABR in effect does the same thing, they grant special papers to--in addition to the 'designer dogs'  "rare breeds and canines certified by another registry that do not have pedigrees available (Import and Rare Breed Division) and even ownership certificates for pets for which proof of breed is not attainable (United Pet Records)."  Proof of breed is not attainable...that's papering mixed breeds--really, what's the point then?

I'm an AKC breeder and realize they aren't the end all be all but I am really wary of these secondary registries.  I really feel that these secondary registries are looking to deceive people to make a buck.   They appear to do nothing beyond registration.  They prey on the lazy and uninformed who think papers are so incredibly meaningful.  So some hold dog shows...what is the breed standard?  Where did they get it?  The AKC is taking part in studies--spending money--to improve health and discover new ways to genetically test for disorders and traits so we can make better breeding choices.  I don't see these other registries following suit.  They don't even offer something like the Limited Registration, most breeders' only tool to encourage their pet people not to breed (I've discovered spay/neuter contracts are useless).  They're sold as pets for a reason, they lack the structure or temperament that are ideal for the breed and that stuff is typically passed on through breeding.  By allowing an 'out' for these pet owners I think they help drag down the quality of the dogs as a whole.  I know I'd be SUPER pissed if I found one of my puppy people had gone and done that, good luck ever getting another dog from a reputable breeder because you know I'm spreading the word about what they did!  Good breeders really don't appreciate their pets ending up in breeding programs.  Sorry, IMO, all that and more set AKC above the rest (at least in this country).  AKC is far from perfect, sure, but I think they are much better than the alternatives.  Does that make me a snob?  I don't care, I'm breeding the best dogs I can and trying to prevent the less sound, poor tempered, non-working ones from reproducing.  Not saying some of the people who register with these groups are disreputable but I have trouble finding any good reason to go to these other registries.  I think a lot of the people who go there are going there because they can't get the pups AKC registered and I gotta wonder why. 

powderhound

Where do these alternate registries do to educate people about breeds and responsible pet ownership?  For the most part, I see nothing on their websites.  What do they do so far as legislative alerts to warn people about negative legislation headed their way?  Again, nothing.  The AKC is no longer just a registry. 

      Well, I can only speak for APRI, because that is the only "alternate" registry I use. They are a relatively new registry, so I don't expect them to have the smae sort of funding as AKC to promote purebred dogs, responsible ownership, etc. However, they ENCOURAGE spaying & neutering of non breeding quality animals - altered dogs are welcome to compete in their conformation shows! What better way to promote responsible ownership than to reward the altering of animals in such a way? Its called an INCENTIVE.
     AKC has the $$$ to spend on health reserch, etc. They are the oldest and one of the largest regestries.

powderhound

Pet owners are not the backbone of every breed, breeders are.  We are the ones who make the (hopefully) well thought out decisions as to who gets bred and with what goal in mind.  We shape the face of the breed and we are the ones who help and sometimes hurt the breed the most.   I'm a small breeder and most of my dogs do not go to pet homes, they go to working and/or show homes--where they are also pets, it's just a part of who they are.  Most pet only homes are not fit for my breed (malamutes) and I do not place them with people without mal experience.   

     On the contrary! Pet owners rely on us to supply them with responsibly bred, quality representations of the breed. No breed would be anything without pet owners. Be realistic - do you place ALL your pups out of EVERY litter in a show or working home? Course not. I hunt my hounds but first & foremost they are bred to be outstanding, well tempered, healthy, stable pets. Actually, the overwhelming majority of my pups are sold to pet homes (and I am well aware of many others in field lines doing EXACTLY the same) because too many field homes, where my pups could be titled, worked with, are not homes that meet my approval. My pups live good lives, and for that I am proudest of all. 
     But I digress. Yes, pet owners are tha backbone of our breeds because there would be NO NEED FOR BREEDERS if we couldn't sell our pups. Pet owners keep interest in the breed alive! I have a great friend who is an AKC show breeder of Beagles but used to breed Cocker Spaniels as well. She once told me that her CS club went under because they refused to allow in pet owners. It not only ruined what could have been a great educational experience for the "pet people", but it further ingrained the stereotype of snobby show breeders in the minds of the public. 

powderhound

APRI does grant papers to non-registered dogs, they just call it something else but in the end, it's granting papers.  I'd call that disreputable, they are devaluing good breeding programs everywhere by allowing the public to basically put all 'papered dogs' on an equal footing because "papers is papers", right?  Wrong!  They are pulling one over on the buyers of those puppies--sure, the new owners absolutely should do their homework and be able to see it for what it is but they don't.  And on their homepage mission statement, they talk about supporting the professional pet industry--hmm, what could THAT possibly mean? 

     Sorry, you're WRONG. APRI is a CLOSED registry. They do not accept most other registeries. To quote from their educational pamphlet that I hand out to my puppy people "There are some registration services, however, that the Registry does not recognize because many will accept animals for registration w/o any documentation of purebred heritage whatsoever." Gee, that sounds like a CLOSED registry to me. 
     Furthermore, my puppy people do EXTENSIVE reserch before they find me. I am very stringent in who gfets a pup from me, and in turn, I have found that those who come to me are quite knowledgable, have done their homework, crossed their T's and dotted their i's. I have had people who went to disreputable breeders or shelters, and boy, do they have horror stories :( They are not foolish enough to be duped again, and I am honored that they choose me after interviewing other breeders and doing their reserach. My puppy buyers are either very knowledgable or show a great willingness to learn. They are responsible, outstanding homes. They give my dogs wonderful lives. They don't care if my litters are AKC or APRI. They've met my dogs, interviewed me, and like what I have to offer them just as much as I like what they offer my pups.
     BTW, professional pet industry equates to commercial breeders - <>! It is, first and foremost a registry for professional breeders, who flocked to them when AKC could not pick which side of the fence it wanted to be on. 
     On a similar note, I wanted to address the fact that most APRI dogs are dual reg'd with AKC. So what do you mean, we ca't get our dogs AKC reg'd? All of my dogs are AKC (w/ full breeding rights), and most are dual reg'd with APRI. Are you referring to limited registration? Why not just go to UKC, who, according to most here, is a reputable organization - that also does not recognize AKC's limited reg. I don't use the LR box - thats too easy, its a cop out. Ah, let me pat myself on the back for being so responsible! No, I use s/n contracts and dissolve my health guarantee should the pup not be altered in the specified time period.
     I still have not herad any convincing arguments against alternate registries. The breed standard is a BREED CLUB issue, has nothing to do with indivigual registry. Health testing is a breeder issue as well. Its up to us to be responsible, and I know plenty AKC breeders who disgrace the breed ... can say the same for APRI, or UKC, or anything. Its the BREEDER, not the registry! My dual registered dogs will not produce less healthy pups when I register the litter w/ APRI as opposed to AKC ... ridiculous.

Truley

The reason I went to a breeder with AKC, UKC or the registry requirerments for my dog is because I wanted a dog of my choosing to have a better than higher chance of avoiding some of the serious health issue's that my breed faces today. Finding well respected and reputable breeders in today's market is hard, extremly hard, and I think part of the problem are some of these registries, not all, but some. John Q. Public hears "papers" and they are appeased, and that is why IMO, byb flourish.

     I'm sorry you've deluded yoyurself into thinking that an AKC dog has a better than average chance of good health.
     I have an AKC Beagle who died @ 3yrs of age due to genetic spinal problems, hence why I will be x-raying spine from now on before breeding. I had to let all the puppy owners know that their 12 week old pups could possibly have this horrible issue later in life :( The worst day of my life.
     At the moment I have a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) reg'd Beagle pup out of cream of the crop stock. She is eligible to be dual registered with AKC. Her papers don't mean much to me, because she has a hole in her heart :(
     My first AKC *** was so shy and dog aggressive she was an instant cull. I have never seen that behavior in this breed to that extent. Her breeder was not disreputable, either, however, hunt came first, and he wasn't too concerned with anything else. My stupid novice mistake. Make sure your breeder culls liberally and makes health/temperament a top priority instead of placing so much emphasis on registry.  
      
    

Funny, I don't feel deluded. And I am sorry that you have had pups with health problems. I should have explained further.

My dog is AKC registerable, but his breeder does not have a dog titled under any AKC event to my knowledge, My dog is from lines that are german style of standard and events. I did not say the AKC was the bomb, it is far from it. But to get into sanctioned events you need the AKC or other recognized papers. I toyed with the idea of eventing, but like I said at this time I cannot. So that is the only reason I looked at AKC.

I looked up the registration for my breed and yours with the AKC, in 2006 my breed registered 43,575 and for yours 39,484. There is no way, absolutly no way all those dogs are healthy or from respected or responsible breeders, and can you imagine how those numbers would swell if you added in the numbers by other registries? Insane.

It is not really the AKC that splits dogs into working and conformation lines.  It is the judging and the dog fancy that causes the split.  If the national breed club works religiously to maintain the dogs who conform to a standard and have correct intinct and temperment to work then it will happen.  What typically occurs, the folks within the club start emphasizing certain things and change happens.

 The AKC holds the stud books and polices the EVENTS and the registration compliance.  That is it.  It is the owners of the breed that change the dogs by making choices in breeding that are in vogue.  I find that in most cases, the greatest amount of change has occurred in the more popular breeds.  The one exception that comes to mind is the malinois where the only thing that matters in the working community is the ability to work.  They appear just at "rabid" about breeding what works as conformation folks are about breeding what wins.  With results that are similar in the amount of change over the standard even though the traits that are emphasized are so different.  Actually, a blend of both would be the right dog, to bad the folks in those two camps are worlds apart in many instances.

Truley

The reason I went to a breeder with AKC, UKC or the registry requirerments for my dog is because I wanted a dog of my choosing to have a better than higher chance of avoiding some of the serious health issue's that my breed faces today. Finding well respected and reputable breeders in today's market is hard, extremly hard, and I think part of the problem are some of these registries, not all, but some. John Q. Public hears "papers" and they are appeased, and that is why IMO, byb flourish.

 Just because someone lives in a nice house and raises puppies in the house doesn't make them a good breeder. Did your new puppy come with a CERF certificate from parents who were CERF'd? CERF is an eye exam which can only be performed by an specialist. Juvenile catracts and PRA are huge concerns in the breed and both are problems which can not be found during a routine vet examine.

Was that for me AgileGSD?

Not at all Truely - was for the OP.

AKC registration means absolutely NOTHING.  Just because you got unhealthy dogs does not mean that AKC dogs are unhealthy- it means some of them are unhealthy.

 I have four AKC registered dogs.  That doesn't say a thing about their quality at all.  One of those dogs came from a back yard breeder, but had papers, the other three came from good breeders who compete with their dogs.  They all have full registration papers, but my female sheltie from the BYB is a far cry from her breed standard. Another of my AKC registered dogs is a show champion. This has nothing to do with the AKC.  No papers guarantee quality.

 That said, if I were looking for a puppy of my chosen breed in the US, I'd only consider AKC breeders.  Why?  Because I have a better guarantee of finding a quality breeder through the breed club.  I know personally that in my breed most UKC breeders are people who just got fed up with the AKC for whatever reason.  Most of the breeders that I think are quality are AKC.  That's not to say in other breeds I'd only consider AKC.  If I were to get a border collie, I'd look at ABCA.  For other breeds I'd consider UKC and AKC.  Reputable registries really depend on breed.  The truth of the matter is that most registries, especially the new ones are not reputable in the least.  That's not to say that AKC and UKC are perfect- they're obviously not.  They're just the best option available. 

 That said, to the OP, if your dog is just a pet why does it matter?  Sure I got AKC papers on my sheltie, but we don't compete so it doesn't matter.  She's still a great dog.  Since registries generally just are used to hold shows, if you're not interested in showing, what does it matter?  If you're interested in competing in non-conformation events, you could always neuter your dog and get an ILP in the AKC since you know your dog is a purebred, just not registered.  That way you could compete in some of the fun events. 

"Be realistic - do you place ALL your pups out of EVERY litter in a show or working home? Course not. "

**All but one of my pups are in showing and/or working homes and at that, the pet dog does pulling around the house (firewood, neighborhood kids, whatever) to be useful.   I breed only once a year and have a waiting list where show/ working/performance people come first.  I'd rather keep a good dog if we have the time and space than send it to a pet home if it's a good show or working prospect because malamutes are typically happiest in homes where they're doing something more than holding down the couch.  I have no problems with pet people, but they most certainly are not the backbone of a breeding program. 

 "... there would be NO NEED FOR BREEDERS if we couldn't sell our pups. Pet owners keep interest in the breed alive! "

 **You hunt your dogs...where would you get your dogs if not for breeders or if you didn't breed for yourself?  I breed for myself first and foremost, pet people play no part at all in my breeding decisions. I sometimes give thought to the showing/working/performance people if I'm waivering  and at a standstill between 2 stud dogs as to which I will breed to this year vs. which one next year, I will consider my best homes and their situation...and by my standards, they are not pet people, there's a big difference.  Pet people do really nothing for the breed.  They just own a dog, big deal.  The showing/working/performance people are the ones who keep the interest up because they're actually getting the dogs out there where people can see how great they are. 

"I have a great friend who is an AKC show breeder of Beagles but used to breed Cocker Spaniels as well. She once told me that her CS club went under because they refused to allow in pet owners. It not only ruined what could have been a great educational experience for the "pet people", but it further ingrained the stereotype of snobby show breeders in the minds of the public."  

 **I don't have a problem with letting in pet people because in my breed they tend to become interested in doing something with their dogs, even if it's public ed at breed booths.   Some of my best friends bring their pet rescue dogs to public ed events and that's great. 
    

"     Sorry, you're WRONG. APRI is a CLOSED registry. They do not accept most other registeries. To quote from their educational pamphlet that I hand out to my puppy people "There are some registration services, however, that the Registry does not recognize because many will accept animals for registration w/o any documentation of purebred heritage whatsoever." Gee, that sounds like a CLOSED registry to me. "

 **I'm not wrong, it's on their website.  They will provide papers (but not a true registration) to people with dogs they bred but only have limited pedigree information.  Papers are papers are papers in the eyes of people who do not know any better and they're capitalizing on that.  It devalues the registered dogs. 

    " BTW, professional pet industry equates to commercial breeders - <>! It is, first and foremost a registry for professional breeders, who flocked to them when AKC could not pick which side of the fence it wanted to be on. "

**Commercial breeders, puppy mills, same thing just one sounds nicer than the other.

     "On a similar note, I wanted to address the fact that most APRI dogs are dual reg'd with AKC. So what do you mean, we ca't get our dogs AKC reg'd? All of my dogs are AKC (w/ full breeding rights), and most are dual reg'd with APRI. Are you referring to limited registration? Why not just go to UKC, who, according to most here, is a reputable organization - that also does not recognize AKC's limited reg. I don't use the LR box - thats too easy, its a cop out. Ah, let me pat myself on the back for being so responsible! No, I use s/n contracts and dissolve my health guarantee should the pup not be altered in the specified time period. "

**What I'm saying is that some of these registries will register these dogs sold on AKC's limited registration, people breed these dogs, and then register them with someone else because AKC will not register the resulting offspring.  THAT is what I have a problem with.  I don't like that people who bought pet quality pups are simply creating more pets--so I did the health checks on the parents as did the many generations before them but as anyone who breeds knows, that only goes so far to produce healthy puppies.  I have a problem with someone buying a pet from me and then going elsewhere and becoming backyard breeders, breeding inferior type dogs without health clearances--I don't want my name attached to that at all.  Some people don't care about the guarantee though either, so now they have an intact dog they can breed and then also register the pups, it's really no better insurance than the limited registration. I have nothing to do with UKC, haven't bothered to look into their registry, don't know or care if they're reputable or not. 

    " I still have not herad any convincing arguments against alternate registries. The breed standard is a BREED CLUB issue, has nothing to do with indivigual registry. Health testing is a breeder issue as well. Its up to us to be responsible, and I know plenty AKC breeders who disgrace the breed ... can say the same for APRI, or UKC, or anything. Its the BREEDER, not the registry! My dual registered dogs will not produce less healthy pups when I register the litter w/ APRI as opposed to AKC ... ridiculous."

**It's not a breed club issue, the breed club can't really do anything about anything beyond education.   They're limited as to what they can do about Code of Ethics violations.  It does have to do with the registries, many of these alternate registries are simply capitalizing on the ignorance of pet owners to make a buck and doing nothing for educating new owners or breeders, they're encouraging people to breed dogs for the sake of breeding dogs.  They are not for the betterment of the breed, which they should be.  Sure there are crappy AKC breeders with crappy AKC dogs--some of which do quite well at the shows yet produce seizing puppies over and over without a second though, I'd never dispute that because I know some of them and I avoid those people like the plague. It's not a perfect system.  I do agree it's up to us to be responsible but the AKC does more for health through their involvement in the CHF than any other registry.    If there was really a registry for the truely serious breeder who did at least as much for the health and education of breeders and owners as AKC does, then I'd be all for it.  I'd love to see a registry with more bite when it came to getting their breeders operating a good healthy breeding program but so far, there isn't really anything that comes close. 

powderhound

Be realistic - do you place ALL your pups out of EVERY litter in a show or working home? Course not. "

**All but one of my pups are in showing and/or working homes and at that, the pet dog does pulling around the house (firewood, neighborhood kids, whatever) to be useful.   I breed only once a year and have a waiting list where show/ working/performance people come first.  I'd rather keep a good dog if we have the time and space than send it to a pet home if it's a good show or working prospect

     Well, there is where we differ. If I can't get a pup in a show or working home, I would rather see it live out a good life as someone's pet. After all, in a carefully planned litter, most or all the pups would be a working/show prospect (or ya need to rethink your breeding program!) I want to make it clear that I am NOT breeding to supply a demand for pets, I breed entirely for myself as a (obsessive) hobby - and btw, I also bred one litter per year on average, occasionally two. The extra pups have to go somewhere. I test for traits that preclude working ability, and I see these in 95% of my pups, some much stronger than others. Personally, I don't particularly want my pups in most field homes - Beagles living with hunters/field trialers typically have an average lifespan nowadays of SIX years  That is unacceptable to me, and so those hounds with great field potential go off to live long, healthy lives as someone's pet. One of the best pups I ever bred is living the good life in a pet home, and his family is so wonderful, so deserving, I wouldn't have it any other way. Getting back on topic, this pup is also APRI only, and is out of the dog in my siggy line, also APRI/UKC. This pup's sire has several points, one first place win in UKC trials & produces health, temperament, and above average to outstanding conformation in his pups. The pup also has conformation points under two judges in APRI and is very much deserving of this. He is show quality as per the Standard drafted by the National Beagle Club. He could win in any format, AKC, UKC, etc.
     So, what about this pup is poorly bred, because he's from an alternate registry? I have many more just as good ... 
     

powderhound

 " BTW, professional pet industry equates to commercial breeders - <>! It is, first and foremost a registry for professional breeders, who flocked to them when AKC could not pick which side of the fence it wanted to be on. "

**Commercial breeders, puppy mills, same thing just one sounds nicer than the other.

     Thats AR propoganda Professional or commercial breeders are NOT puppy mills! What constitutes a mill, now? Just because someone breeds for pets and makes a profit off the litters? Nevermind that the dogs are loved, kept in immaculate conditions, from top notch bloodlines. Plenty of breeders are the exact opposite of what I described, but I can name several well known show breeders who are more of a puppy mill churning out pups with no regard to health, temperament - and are selling pups only on the basis of bloodlines and titles.

powderhound

**What I'm saying is that some of these registries will register these dogs sold on AKC's limited registration, people breed these dogs, and then register them with someone else because AKC will not register the resulting offspring.  THAT is what I have a problem with.  I don't like that people who bought pet quality pups are simply creating more pets--so I did the health checks on the parents as did the many generations before them but as anyone who breeds knows, that only goes so far to produce healthy puppies.  I have a problem with someone buying a pet from me and then going elsewhere and becoming backyard breeders, breeding inferior type dogs without health clearances--I don't want my name attached to that at all. 

     I understand that, and I have the same worries. Its not just regestries such as APRI, UABR, CKC that do not recognize AKC's Limited Registration. UKC does not honor it either. Therefore, don't rely on the Registry to police your pups for you. On that note, don't blame the Registry, whichever one it was, becuase a disreputable buyer slipped past the radar. Its our responsibility. Its all on the breeder. Registries are just that, no matter what they support, what they fund. 
   Titles aren't very important to me, after all this is a hobby, and tho I enjoy a feild trial or show now & than, its not my thing. Which is one of the reasons I utilize APRI. I like that they support the indivigual's right to breed pet dogs - thats what mine are, after all, since they're not titled. So hopefully the pups I produce are proof positive I'm a competent breeder and that I am doing just fine w/o titling dogs before I breed. Lots of people would call me a BYB because of that fact, but I'm ok with that. I'm proud of my BYB APRI pet pups.  

So just a general question...

 If you don't title your dogs then how do you go about comparing them to others' breeding stock.  How do you decide which dogs should be bred.  I'm not a breeder, but I look for titles (not just conformation) among many other things as proof that the breeder is breeding towards the betterment of the breed.  If your dogs are as good as you say they are hunting wise, why not compete and get the titles so you can prove it?