Choker collars - good or bad?

BAD BAD BAD BAD!!!!!

Prong (pinch) collars are less likely to cause harm the a choke chain. Choke chains don't have a stopper, and can literally live up to the name. Prongs on the other hand have stoppers and won't choke the dog. Dogs have extremely tough skin on their necks (unlike us...are mothers held us, not dragged up by our necks).

Anyways, the bottom line is BAD!

A better collar if you want to go for the choke effect is a Premier collar. They're nylon, and won't choke if measured correctly.

My last experience with a choke chain was with my great dane/lab mix years ago.  He was 120-125 lbs of pure muscle and pulled on me constantly.  The choke chain did NOT help, he was choking himself.  Our first day at obedience class, the trainer recommended the prong collar, which I was afraid to use becasue I thought it would hurt him.  Well was I ever wrong!  We had instant results, he stopped pulling immediately!  So, I wil NOT ever use a choke chain again!!
I taught my GSD/Rott mix to walk with a prong collar, but she tried to hide when I attempted to put it on.  Then my GSD had a surgical wound on the neck and I had to find an alternative, so I bought the GL.  Now both dogs walk on the GL.  Unfortunately, too many people mistake it for a muzzle and ask if  my dogs will bite. 
There was a thread discussing the GL, halti, and the Easy Walk harness; perhaps you could try that harness. [linkhttp://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?id=74]http://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?id=74[/link]

If you are uncomfortable with a prong, try an Easy Walk Harness or a Gentle Leader.  Just read the instructions on the GL, or buy the video, so you will be using it properly.  www.premierpet.com

I use chokers when I bring my dogs out to the bathroom because they wear their regular collars loosely, and they could easily slip out of them if they wanted to. This is something I've done since this happened to me many years ago, when we had just adopted Brown. Since then, it's just been a precautionary thing.
 
As for teaching a dog to walk correctly on a leash, I think there's better methods. I like harnesses, but what really stopped Grey and Tar from pulling was a head halti. It Tar time to get used to having something his face, but it really made walking him easier.

I absolutely hate, loathe and despise when someone *calls* them "choker" collars.  They are simply chain collars.  or Training Collars -- but they should not EVER "choke" a dog.
 
Sorry -- had to get that little 'rant' out of my system.  They should train by *sound*.  That kinda "zip-clink" sound it makes when you give a gentle collar correct -- that sound is actually very very close to 'clicker training' - it's close to their ear and if the collar is on correctly it should be that SOUND, not any sort of negative choking sensation, that triggers the dog to act. 
 
I also like the flat nylon 'martingales' with the chain insert -- same principle except those collars can only 'close' so much so there is less danger to an inexperienced trainer.
 
I guess I get my "knickers in a twist" (*grin* so sue me - my husband is British) about people calling them 'choker' collars simply because using that name perpetuates the belief that you are supposed to 'choke' the dog for it to work.  That's completely untrue.
 
For any AKC event, even for the Canine Good Citizen test you have to use either a chain or a flat buckle collar (mostly the chain collar ... for consistencies sake) -- you can't use a prong (and I can't bring MYself to use one for all the same reasons you said - it just makes me uncomfortable and I've used it on my own arm and HATED it), and you can't use a harness either.
 
However -- you'll find, I think, you don't have much control with a classic harness, particularly not with a big dog.  Once they learn to throw their weight forward they have too much 'traction'.
 
Can I suggest you try a Sporn??  Not expensive and they are partly a harness.  No, you can't use them for AKC type show/competition, etc. but they work well as a training aid and for when you MUST have control.
 
They are a flat nylon collar with a plastic clip.  BUT there are two sets of "D" rings -- one set in the front and one set on the back of the collar. 
 
Then there is an adjustable nylon strap with an 'O' ring in the middle and clips on either end.  Those 'ends' thread thru sherpa padding and one end clips to the back of the collar and the other end clips to the front of the collar - same thing on both sides.  But that "O" ring adjusts the tension of those straps.
 
So essentially you clip the lead to the O ring -- and you tighten it snugly -- and those straps actually 'break' that incredible traction they can get going, but it also ensures that the collar stays low on the shoulders and can't 'choke' the dog at all.  Pull as hard as they can, they can't put their entire weight into it.  Particularly effective on those breeds like pit mixes that have shoulders like oxen and could pull a small barge with no effort.
 
It 'looks' like a plain flat collar -- the straps aren't noticable.  But this is wonderful for training, but when - at the same time - you need control.  We've got one dog currently who is a MEGA puller -- and it helps enormously.
 
See, the kicker is that you can take a puller to a training class and they can 'learn' to do it well in class, but the second you're outside of class - all they have to do is 'get away with' pulling ONE time and voila ... you've re-trained your dog to want to pull again.
 
We've found the Sporn to be really helpful in 'at home' training and just for taking the dogs places where you need to be 100% certain you won't get successful pulling.  PetSmart, Petco -- most any of these places carry them.
 
Helpful hint -- once you get it 'on' and adjusted (which IS a job) never 'open' the collar again, nor take off the straps either.  Simply loosen the O-ring and pull the straps out from under the feet and slide the collar over the head (yes, it can be THAT loose).  Next time putting it on is a snap -- you just slide the collar over the head, pull the front feet thru the straps and tighten and go.  Very easy.
 
 

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs

That kinda "zip-clink" sound it makes when you give a gentle collar correct -- that sound is actually very very close to 'clicker training'

Actually, it's kindof the opposite of clicker training. A click from the clicker marks a good behavior. The chain pop from any sort of "training collar" is a correction for bad behavior. >o.o<

Absolutely not.  It tells the dog TO do a thing as well.  And it shouldn't be used always as a negative but mostly to communicate.  Not if done right.  You lift the leash to get the sound and you couple it with a command.  But it marks that command at THAT instant as the thing to do.  You don't drag the dog into a sitting position -- you give the command in such a way that you GET the behavior, or you help them, or train in tiny steps, but you don't force it. 

That's still totally different than marking a good behavior. I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree lol...

That's why I never post in training -- I LOATHE clickers.  The sound, to me, is closely akin to fingernails scratching on a blackboard. 
 
You can't JUST train 'positive' things -- you have to teach them by communicating to them.  Teaching them "when" to do a thing (as in "when I tug this way on the leash I need you to go this way" helps them mesh to you
 
clicker training has it's place -- I'm not saying it's bad -- but to get the attention of a strong-willed dog sometimes you need other methods.  Given the array of things you can use, it's helpful for people to know the RIGHT way to use a tool that is as used in the dog world as a chain collar.  If you ever do any obedience, rally or even casual dog sport, pinches aren't allowed.  And 80 people all trying to use a clicker at once doesn't work either. 
 
I said it was similar -- not the same as.  It works by sound and it works by specifically targeting a particular place/time.  And if you are training with a chain collar as you should be you ARE using positive reinforcement techniques, but where a clicker simply makes a sound the chain collar is a physical link from you to the dog and ultimately the dog responds on a physical level.
 
When your body stops eventually the dog will only need his position and the position of your body to know what it should do.  You stop, his butt hits the ground in a 'sit' and you're both happy.
 
I'm trying to make the point here that it should all BE positive -- if you are jerking the dog's neck you're doing it wrong.  STOP.  People have this assumption chain collars aren't 'positive' and they are and should be.  They should be communication with the dog, not punishment.
 
  I wasn't equating completely different things.

My dog wears a "chain' collar many because I cannot find a flat collar that works for Kobi. As a younger dog (1yr) I tried the typical nylon type collar. It would mat his fur terribly and the dye would stain his white fur when ever it got wet. He had a pink chest for almost 6 months. When he got older he grow such a thick and heavy mane that I could not fit it tightly enough around his neck and of coarse it would simply pull off with any resistance. I have also tried the round leather collars, but it's the same problem. So the chain is really the only collar that works. If I am walking him on leash, I use a harness. For short trips in and out of the car and off leash he has his chain.
So if anyone else has a dog with a big heavy mane, I would be interested to hear what you use.

Calliecritturs is right about the clicking noise being what the dog learns to respond to. When I walk Kobi on his chocker all I have to do is shake the leash - which jiggles the chain and Kobi knows he is about to get a command. He stops. I say "this way!", he turns and we're off.

Clickers drive me nuts as well.  I just can't do that many things at once!

I use a "chain collar" for training.  I put it up high on the neck just behind the ears.  See how a handler uses one in the show ring and you will see what I mean. Gypsy knows that the chain clinking means a correction MAY be in order.  She stops what she is doing wrong and SELF corrects. I have also used a pinch collar with similar results.

FWIW, I have a dog that is stronger than dogs three times her size and her manners are better than 98% of ALL dogs out there, clicker trained, wearing a GL, chain collar, flat collar, etc.

Sorry -- had to get that little 'rant' out of my system. They should train by *sound*. That kinda "zip-clink" sound it makes when you give a gentle collar correct -- that sound is actually very very close to 'clicker training' - it's close to their ear and if the collar is on correctly it should be that SOUND, not any sort of negative choking sensation, that triggers the dog to act.

Exactly.

I'm using one on Teenie, right now (I feel the barbeque heating up!) at the instruction of a very pricey private trainer. You wanna know something? This dog, this silly little brainless dog, didn't "get" clicker training. She never understood it. In a year, I couldn't get a solid "sit" out of her. In a month, using the sound of a chain clicking by her ear (it NEVER got tight, NEVER choked her, was NEVER an orthopaedic risk), she can sit, stay, down, heel, and come pretty solidly in the house and yard. That is INCREDIBLE progress.

It isn't the same as clicker training, I'll agree. It is simply an attention getter. I reward her, heavily, when she behaves. I use the clicking sound of the collar to get attention on me.

I used it properly on Sally (55lb pit mix), and had no success.  She just ignored it, even with a trainer working with her.

We have had the most success with a prong or GL.

I don't care what you call it, choke collar, chain collar, training collar, whatever.  Used properly, it works.