Is it really that wrong to eat dogs and cats?

I recently learnt that in Peru, the common thing to do is keep some guinnea pigs and rabbits in the kitchen, feed them grass and vegies, then when you need some meat for a stew, catch a guinnea pig and snap its neck. I thought that was a very harmonious way of eating meat, actually. I think it's far better to be an intimate part of an animal's life BEFORE you eat it than to never know it as anything more than a piece of steak on a plate. I appreciate my beef a lot more these days, now that I've made lots of bovine friends, some of which I've eaten. Call me barbaric for eating something with a name, but I kinda feel that where civilisation went so wrong was in allowing people to divorce themselves from the messy problem of being a creature with a conscience that eats other creatures on a regular basis. Maybe if everyone was forced to know their food on a person level and appreciate the sacrifice made for them, our entire globe wouldn't be in the serious environmental state it's in now. Maybe people would care about what was happening.

ORIGINAL: corvus

I recently learnt that in Peru, the common thing to do is keep some guinnea pigs and rabbits in the kitchen, feed them grass and vegies, then when you need some meat for a stew, catch a guinnea pig and snap its neck. I thought that was a very harmonious way of eating meat, actually. I think it's far better to be an intimate part of an animal's life BEFORE you eat it than to never know it as anything more than a piece of steak on a plate. I appreciate my beef a lot more these days, now that I've made lots of bovine friends, some of which I've eaten. Call me barbaric for eating something with a name, but I kinda feel that where civilisation went so wrong was in allowing people to divorce themselves from the messy problem of being a creature with a conscience that eats other creatures on a regular basis. Maybe if everyone was forced to know their food on a person level and appreciate the sacrifice made for them, our entire globe wouldn't be in the serious environmental state it's in now. Maybe people would care about what was happening.

I agree with you. We are far too removed from our food - can't be helped mostly since there is no real way city dwellers could raise their own meat. But I think the pendulum has swung too far (factory farms).  My favorite steak house has long horn steer heads on the walls.  Some think that's barbaric, but that's where their steak comes from. IMO it's mindfulness.

Paula

Great question for a dog forum.  Where did you come up with such an extremely well thought out and provocative question? 
 
Simply mind boggling~
 
[sm=tex.gif]

ORIGINAL: corvus

I recently learnt that in Peru, the common thing to do is keep some guinnea pigs and rabbits in the kitchen, feed them grass and vegies, then when you need some meat for a stew, catch a guinnea pig and snap its neck. I thought that was a very harmonious way of eating meat, actually. I think it's far better to be an intimate part of an animal's life BEFORE you eat it than to never know it as anything more than a piece of steak on a plate. I appreciate my beef a lot more these days, now that I've made lots of bovine friends, some of which I've eaten. Call me barbaric for eating something with a name, but I kinda feel that where civilisation went so wrong was in allowing people to divorce themselves from the messy problem of being a creature with a conscience that eats other creatures on a regular basis. Maybe if everyone was forced to know their food on a person level and appreciate the sacrifice made for them, our entire globe wouldn't be in the serious environmental state it's in now. Maybe people would care about what was happening.

 
I agree completely. Hence, my chickens. All of them have names, all of them are my friends until "the day" comes. [] It really does make me feel MUCH better about my choice to continue eating meat. Now, when I see people who have never in their lives come into contact with any livestock, the kind of people who say things like "roosters don't lay eggs?" The kind of people who are just so completely removed from everything around them...it makes me physically ill. Humans are a part of nature, humans ARE animals. It makes me so sad that people forget this, and even sadder that we consider it a GOOD thing- "progress"- to move even further from a natural state.
 
My dream is to live out in the sticks, with my animals, and seperate myself totally from this society. I want to get back to a natural way of living in which I am *part* of nature, not running around destroying it and/or acting like it's mine to do with as I please. To me, most native peoples had it right, before Europeans came along to tell them how "savage" and wrong they were. (Savage, right...the Mayans had a working calendar when Europeans were still swinging from trees. [8|])  I want to live like they lived. It'll be hard to go without modern conveniences and technology, and I don't know if ultimately I would be able to give everything up...but right now, that is my goal. I no longer want to take part in a society that views other species, and the earth in general, as property and lesser beings to destroy and manipulate as they see fit.
 

When I asked myself that question, logic would take me down the path of "well, dogs and cats are intelligent and seem to have some consciousness, while cows don't...." but is that true, and how do we know? I think somewhere you're forced to draw a line and that line is kind of arbitrary when you get down to it. There is no hard and fast boundary between "intelligent" and "dumb" animals, especially the more these animals are studied for signs of consciousness, emotion, internal mental lives, etc. I also felt that I was choosing to eat meat basically because I wanted to and I could but ethically it felt a little... problematic.

 
Thing is, science doesn't have a real way to prove conciousness...even in humans. I could go into a long explanation of conciousness and why everything in the world has it, but that would involve a religion discussion so I won't. Just suffice to say, *everything* is intelligent and concious. Everything. The tests we use to define conciousness define it in HUMAN terms- when in fact, other species are so vastly different from humans (and from each other) that it really just doesn't translate well. Animals have a language of thought. They experience everything in the form of pictures, emotions, and senses, all mashed together. In communicating with animals telepathically, you will find that they have so many concepts that we just cannot understand. We don't have those concepts anymore...because we use language as a crutch. The form of communication, and experience, that animals use is much older and much more complex than language. They can't rely on a word to symbolize what they mean...and in fact, a word can't even begin to portray a thing for what it really is, so you really have to question which is "better." Personally, I would choose their way of thinking and communicating over our own. Their concept of a christmas tree could be a vivid picture of pine needles, a burst of green, a swirl of lights, the scent of pine, the feeling of the bark of the trunk on their wet nose. All of that means "christmas tree" to them. All we have, as humans, are the words "christmas tree." Which is "better?" Why?
 
It just makes me so upset when I hear "well, this animal is more intelligent than this one." or "Well, this animal has conciousness. This one doesn't." To me, those are the two most insanely presumptuous statements that anyone can possibly make. How on earth does one being have the right to say to another "You don't have a soul. You don't think. You aren't even aware of what you do. I don't understand you, and you don't do things in a way that I recognize, so you must not do them at all." Animals have minds that are just as good as ours. They experience the world just as we do (actually, they experience the world much more acutely than we do...so again, who is "better" in that aspect?) I personally believe that everything, not just humans, have souls and that all souls are equal.
 
I guess my point is just that the idea that some animals are concious and intelligent and others are not is all based on reasons made up by people who want to justify the cruel treatment of other living things. If science admits that animals think and feel as much as a human, where does that place animal experimentation on a morality scale? Why on earth would they put their profession in jeapordy to prove that animals do, in fact, feel mental anguish when they're hurt? The truth is, science roves" what it wants to when it wants to. Scientists say that animals can't tell us what, or if, they think and so we have to assume that they can't. By that token, do we also have to assume that someone who is mute does not have a mind? Just something to think about.
 
And all of this isn't to say that we should never eat meat. Animals understand the predator/prey relationship. When a rabbit is killed by a wolf, it certainly isn't happy about it, but it understands that a wolf just needs to eat. Likewise, the wolf doesn't think that the rabbit is stupid, or "deserved" to get eaten...it actually has respect for the rabbit and gives thanks that it gave its life so that he may live. Yes, animals have abstract thoughts, an understanding of souls and an afterlife, and they certainly do give thanks for the lives that they take. They don't feel bad about it...they're just doing what their species does and they don't have any guilt.  To be honest, that's all prey animals want from humans- a little bit of respect. They want to be treated like living things, not meat or milk or egg machines, and when they die they want us to give thanks for their lives- not act like we had a "right" to do what we want with a "mindless" animal. At least, this is what I've heard from animals themselves. []
 
Other animals honestly think humans are just broken. They really do seem to pity us. They just can't even begin to fathom why we have strayed so far.
 
Anyway, sorry I got so preachy...that just sent me off on a tirade. [] I'll get off of my soapbox now. Jones, I'm really glad you started really thinking about things and decided to make some changes. If only more people would be willing to sit down, evaluate themselves, and realize that long-held beliefs are not always the best ones. It's wonderful when people are able to swallow their pride and move forward.
 
 

I agree with you. We are far too removed from our food - can't be helped mostly since there is no real way city dwellers could raise their own meat.

 
Heck, I raise my own meat in the city. Alot of people (including the people who enforce the law) don't realize that in *most* cities and suburban areas, it is at least legal to keep a few hens if nothing else. My chickens live in a small room in my basement at night and in bad weather, and have a small outdoor run to go in when it's nice outside. I think that even if people realized that they *could* do it, they wouldn't. We've become too much of a convenience society. Most people wouldn't be willing to care for, clean up after, feed, and nurture an animal for 6 months until it's big enough to eat. Much easier to run to the store and grab a pack of chicken breasts. Sad, but true.

Heck, I raise my own meat in the city. Alot of people (including the people who enforce the law) don't realize that in *most* cities and suburban areas, it is at least legal to keep a few hens if nothing else. My chickens live in a small room in my basement at night and in bad weather, and have a small outdoor run to go in when it's nice outside. I think that even if people realized that they *could* do it, they wouldn't. We've become too much of a convenience society. Most people wouldn't be willing to care for, clean up after, feed, and nurture an animal for 6 months until it's big enough to eat. Much easier to run to the store and grab a pack of chicken breasts. Sad, but true.

 
Hold up Ratsicles... I was with you until this.  Now you're just passing judgement.  Sorry to inform you but you each of the 9 1/2 million people in NYC are NOT allowed to keep "a few hens if nothing else".  We have very strict health and sanitation laws here, many people are not even allowed to have domestic pets.  You say your chickens live in a small room in your basement...  You have a basement??  I don't even have bicycle storage, let alone a chicken room.  I digress...
 
When you know better, you do better.  I don't buy meat from the grocery store any longer and I eat MUCH less of it than in the past.  I buy from a butcher who buys from local farms.  My point is that it is simply unreasonable to judge those who do not name, raise and kill their own livestock in 21st Century America.  One way to deal with this is through education.  Why don't you film a documentary on factory farms and present options to people with a conscience?   I believe that many people just don't realize. 

I dont think anyone has a right to judge what other people eat. I remember when I was in the first grade, my teacher heard me say 'Yuck!' to a girl because she was eating brussel sprouts. My teacher simply told me 'You shouldnt say Yuck to anyones food. What if someone from a different country said it to you because you ate french fries?'
It was a simple comparison but it is one that has stuck in my mind. What do the people of India think of us, knowing that we eat cows? To them cows are sacred animals. We have no right to tell anyone what is acceptable to eat and what is not. I do not eat Deer, Rabbit or Duck. I dont hold anything against people who do. Now while I will never eat a dog or a cat, as I have developed strong bonds with these species, and I see the way my culture views these animals, I will never pass judgement on another person who happens to eat them.
I eat pork, and chicken. I eat steak. Many a member in my family raise chickens, and rely on those chickens to provide eggs for them, and when the time is right, to also provide meat for them. I feel good drinking a nice warm broth which I know has been made from a chicken who did not suffer all of their lives, and who were not loaded with chemicals. It actually tastes better.
My sons uncle raises pigs for slaughter. In one season he has as many as 40-50 pigs. And I believe he does develop a sort of bond with them. He helps the sows give birth, and cares for any piglets who need it. Everything is clean, they are all well fed and happy. Burt when the time comes to sell them off to people who want one for the purpose of holiday eating, there is no pain in the decision.
But anyway, what I want to say is... to each their own. We shouldnt judge if we dont want to be judged.

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Heck, I raise my own meat in the city. Alot of people (including the people who enforce the law) don't realize that in *most* cities and suburban areas, it is at least legal to keep a few hens if nothing else. My chickens live in a small room in my basement at night and in bad weather, and have a small outdoor run to go in when it's nice outside. I think that even if people realized that they *could* do it, they wouldn't. We've become too much of a convenience society. Most people wouldn't be willing to care for, clean up after, feed, and nurture an animal for 6 months until it's big enough to eat. Much easier to run to the store and grab a pack of chicken breasts. Sad, but true.

Hold up Ratsicles... I was with you until this.  Now you're just passing judgement.  Sorry to inform you but you each of the 9 1/2 million people in NYC are NOT allowed to keep "a few hens if nothing else".  We have very strict health and sanitation laws here, many people are not even allowed to have domestic pets.  You say your chickens live in a small room in your basement...  You have a basement??  I don't even have bicycle storage, let alone a chicken room.  I digress...

When you know better, you do better.  I don't buy meat from the grocery store any longer and I eat MUCH less of it than in the past.  I buy from a butcher who buys from local farms.  My point is that it is simply unreasonable to judge those who do not name, raise and kill their own livestock in 21st Century America.  One way to deal with this is through education.  Why don't you film a documentary on factory farms and present options to people with a conscience?   I believe that many people just don't realize. 

Woah, hold on, I'm not passing judgement. I do understand that there are people out there who do not have the option to raise their own meat. Maybe I shouldn't have said "most" cities...perhaps I should have said "more cities than people realize." I was trying to say that more people have the option to do it than they think- ALOT of people assume that unless you have a farm, you can never ever raise your own meat. My point was that that isn't necessarily true. I'm not passing judgement on people for not keeping chickens in their closet. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

It is my *opinion* that people should be responsible for the meat they eat, or not eat it. Barring that, I think they should do what you do- buy meat that comes from a local farm. It is my belief that if you cannot raise your own meat OR get it from a source that treats the animals with some semblance of respect, you should not eat meat. That is my *opinion* and not everyone has to agree with it, and I certainly don't judge people for disagreeing with me. My family buys factory farmed meat from the grocery store. So do 90% of the people I know. I don't run around preaching to them and telling them how horrible they are for doing. We were one the subject here, so I simply gave my opinion. People are free to do with my opinions as they like. I never, ever passed judgement on anyone for not living exactly as I do.

I STILL think that even if people knew better and had the option, MANY of them would choose to continue to buy factory farmed meat.  More people than you think, even when presented with the facts...even when they DO know...choose to continue doing what they're doing. Because it's easy. Alot of people refuse to believe that animals can feel in the first place. If someone beleives that an animal can't feel, why should they change their way of life for them?

But again, I apologize if it seems like I was passing judgement on people who don't raise their own meat. I wasn't, but I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

If you follow the link to the Cavalier King Charles thread, the user has been suspended. Evidently, he/she was here primarily to cause trouble, regardless of whether we have a philosophical debate on which animals are food and which are not.
 
Heinlein's most famous book "Stranger in a Strange Land" dealt with a human that had been raised by martians. In his martian culture, it was a standard custom to eat your fellow being after they had died. Your body was seen as food, not to be wasted. And while I can appreciate the cultural difference, that doesn't mean that I want or think that cannibalism should become the norm. "Soylent Green is people!"
 
People engage in symbolic cannibalism. "Eat this bread as if it were My body, Drink this wine as if it were My blood. Remember Me when you eat and drink." Just the same, just because another culture reveres the cow and may eat dog, doesn't mean we're wrong for being the opposite. Nor are we wrong because we don't like the idea of eating dog or cat. So, it's an american thing to not like eating dog and cat. And I am unaplogetically american.

When you go to a fast food place or a steakhouse, where do you think the meat is coming from?
 
Not your local butcher !!!

ORIGINAL: snownose

When you go to a fast food place or a steakhouse, where do you think the meat is coming from?

Not your local butcher !!!

 
 
I don't know if you were referring to me, but I no longer eat at fast food places, or restaurants that cannot tell me where the meat comes from. There are places, especially local places, who buy meat from local butchers. There are also places that have organic options. All I have to do is ask, and if they don't have what I want, I don't eat there. Really, I do most of my cooking myself. I very, very rarely eat out...not even on a monthly basis. It's cheaper, and I have control over the ingredients. I like it that way. []

I haven't read through this thread because, as ron said, the OP has been suspended and was clearly out just to cause trouble, but I have been involved in this very discussion on another forum, and one pertinent point that came to light there is that the eating of dogs and cats in other cultures is NOT prevalent, it's quite rare and not a staple food, nor the norm, so I think it's important to remember that when comparing eating dogs that to the eating of farm animals.  Dogs and cats also serve the same role in these cultures as in ours, that of domesticated pets, so there isn't the dichotomy of pet versus food that makes the comparison simple either. 

I don't know if you were referring to me, but I no longer eat at fast food places, or restaurants that cannot tell me where the meat comes from. There are places, especially local places, who buy meat from local butchers. There are also places that have organic options. All I have to do is ask, and if they don't have what I want, I don't eat there. Really, I do most of my cooking myself. I very, very rarely eat out...not even on a monthly basis. It's cheaper, and I have control over the ingredients. I like it that way.

It wasn't directed at you.[]

My hubby still eats meat, and I inquired where the stuff comes from.
All chain fast food places get it from IBP, Con Agra and so on.
Grocery stores are no different, unless you buy form a specialty store.

Places like IBP slaughter an average of 400 cattle per hour, and the conditions aren't nice.
 
[linkhttp://www.hfa.org/about/index.html]http://www.hfa.org/about/index.html[/link]

Just a very quick word on ORGANIC meat.  Food certified under the USDA regulations as organic must be produced without synthetic pesticides and fertilizers, antibiotics, growth hormones and feed made from animal parts.  It says NOTHING about humane treatment, living conditions or slaughter.   The terms Free Range and Free Roaming may also be misleading as there are NO regulations whatsoever for the definitions of these terms for beef products.  The Free Range definition for non beef products simply states that animals must have access to outdoor areas, that's it!  It doesn't require that the animals ever actually be outside.  It's NOT so easy to do the right thing and still eat meat.  The average person probably doesn't even have access to a truly humane local farm...  And lets face it, you aren't making your own clothing because you can't find clothes that are GUARANTEED sweat-shop free are you??   We do the best we can.  I had a business lunch at a steakhouse yesterday.  I didn't lose any sleep over it.

ORIGINAL: labcrab

Just a very quick word on ORGANIC meat.  Food certified under the USDA regulations as organic must be produced without synthetic pesticides and fertilizers, antibiotics, growth hormones and feed made from animal parts.  It says NOTHING about humane treatment, living conditions or slaughter.   The terms Free Range and Free Roaming may also be misleading as there are NO regulations whatsoever for the definitions of these terms for beef products.  The Free Range definition for non beef products simply states that animals must have access to outdoor areas, that's it!  It doesn't require that the animals ever actually be outside.  It's NOT so easy to do the right thing and still eat meat.  The average person probably doesn't even have access to a truly humane local farm...  And lets face it, you aren't making your own clothing because you can't find clothes that are GUARANTEED sweat-shop free are you??   We do the best we can.  I had a business lunch at a steakhouse yesterday.  I didn't lose any sleep over it.

 
 
You're absolutely right. All anyone can do is the best they can, and most people, especially people living in big cities don't have alot of options. I personally eat very little meat. Definitely not on a daily basis. I probably buy meat for myself maybe every two weeks. I definitely realize that "organic" and "free range" mean nothing. I am lucky enough to live near a rural area. There is a farmers market nearby where local farmers come to sell meat and produce. All of it is locally grown. It's all just local farmers selling whatever it is they grow. There are also a couple of very small butchers and deer processing places here that get meat from local sources. The selection is of course limited and seasonal, but you can get what you need. A friend of my father also has a small harm and he raises a couple of calves and igs and goats every year, so I can get things from him. I've been to alot of area farms and I know where most of this meat comes from. None of those animals are in confinement situations and most of them live pretty good lives. So most of my meat comes from my chickens...if I happen to be cooking something that needs pork or beef or turkey or whatever, I go to that farmers market. If they don't have what I need, then it looks like I'll have to make something else.
 
 
But again, I realize that I am in an unusual situation. Not everyone has the options that I have, and I am by no means perfect. Like you said yourself, I don't make my own clothes. I am sure I unknowlingly support ALOT of things that I disagree with and don't like. I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't do exactly what I do is bad. I'm just stating my opinions on the matter and how I personally make things work. I follow my beliefs to the best of my abilities. It's not always possible to be perfect, but I do what I can when I can. I don't condemn anyone else for not living as I choose to live. If someone is happy with the way they live their life, that's great. I have no right to judge someone else, just as I would hope they wouldn't judge me.
 
All of this is why my ultimate goal is, like I said before, to move out into the middle of nowhere and become entirely self sufficient. Making my own clothes and all. I'm certainly not there yet, but while I'm waiting, I'm making due with what I can.  []

I am sure I unknowlingly support ALOT of things that I disagree with and don't like.

Yup, me too - it seems to be never-ending.  I only just stopped buying bottled water and non-biodegradable poop bags!  A friend of mine, who happens to live in Seattle, told me that silk is an extremely cruelty-filled product.  

All I can really say to the original sh1t stirring question is:  it's not okay for ME to eat cats and dogs.