why i didn't buy from a "reputable" breeder

I think you've hit on a lot of good points. I would venture to say that most of my friends, family and neighbors have no clue what constitutes a "good" breeder versus a "backyard" breeder. My family, when I was growing up, even got a dog from a pet store, heaven forfend! And as a young adult I got a dog from a breeder. This was pre-internet, so research on breeds was usually limited to getting a book at the library, or talking to a friend, or in my case people at local dog shows. Now I never would, only strays, rescues or pound pups, but not too long ago, I had no clue as to the overpopulation problem, or at least to the extent of it. I'd never heard of a puppymill. I think the problem is one of a lack of knowledge about the problems, so people will do just as you say, go the route of least resistance. Open the phone book and there you go. I think responsible breeders, shelters and rescues should present a united front against the issues of overbreeding and educate, educate, educate. It's kind of like buying a diamond ring . . .most people will go to the local chain store in the mall because it's there. However, in doing so, you will pay THOUSANDS of dollars more for the exact same stone as if you went to a smaller, reputable jeweler. The ring might be just as pretty, but boy, did you get taken. Only difference, some diamonds won't die because of it.

I see why breeders do the things they do, but yes it might turn off some members of the general public.
 
I think they don't advertise prices because they don't want people who are buying a pup based on price alone. Not that it's always the case, but that's their mindset. I am in the same boat as you though - if I was buying from a breeder,  it would be from the mid-priced breeder - not the cheapest, not the most expensive. So I want to know prices.
 
The noseyness and prodding is warranted in my opinion. How would you feel if you sold a beloved pup to someone, only to find out later that this person has re-homed 3 dogs on separate occassions for lame reasons? Or that they have had 3 dogs be put down for aggression? You would probably regret your sale.
 
"there are not enough pups from responsible breeders for everyone who wants a dog..."
 
But there are enough pups from responsible breeders AND shelters. People seem to think that you can't get young dogs or pups from a shelter - and that's just not true. I'd like to see the shelter dogs get homes first, before people go handing their money to joe-blo who breeds his poor female every year.

Everybody hold on - here we go again!
 
Don't get me wrong Faramir - But you have to realize that makin this post was kind of like poking a sleeping bear right?
 
I had made all of 2 post's on this site before I got blasted for buying a "designer" breed instead of getting a shelter dog (no one even asked me if I had even looked, which I did, for 4 months - no dogs that wouldn't grow over 25lbs). I guess my point is watch out, there are many of those "my dog is better because it is a pure bred", "your supporting puppy mills when you buy a 'designer' breed" and "your a horrible person for not rescuing a dog even though neither did I" people here.
 
Just try to see past them and move on. After all, too each their own right?
 

GREAT post, but like a lot of issues it is a double edged sword. I think that if the general public had more knowledge of what they are supposed to excepct from a breeder then it would spur more byb's to be responsible because nobody would want to buy from them. So I think that the more people know what to llok for the better because it puts BYB under more pressure. As long as we have people who dont know what buying standards they should set then there is a huge market for BYB's
As far as the actual responsible breeders being snooty I think the frusteration of having ignorant people come by day after day more concerned over color then health can really wear on them. These are thier babies and the snootier the breeders are the more interest they have in the dogs well being. I tto would screen liek heck if I was a breeder. They go through all of the procedures of health tests, temperment quality and what not and they dont wanna give their babies away to someone who is going to give up the puppy because it got big, they had to move, or some other lame reason people give up dogs.
Its just a really tough situation but I thank you for the thought provoking question, its a great alternative to the heated battles that occur on i-dog.

sheprano: if the general public had more knowledge of what they are supposed to excepct from a breeder then it would spur more byb's to be responsible because nobody would want to buy from them.
 
i like that point
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sheprano: As far as the actual responsible breeders being snooty I think the frusteration of having ignorant people come by day after day more concerned over color then health can really wear on them. These are thier babies and the snootier the breeders are the more interest they have in the dogs well being. .... They go through all of the procedures of health tests, temperment quality and what not and they dont wanna give their babies away to someone who is going to give up the puppy because it got big, they had to move, or some other lame reason ...
 
i don't disagree...but it's not always so simple...i think i might have been screened out...but i think i am a great "owner" now...they are not as insightful as they might think...the bottom line is that they pushed me away with their policies and attitudes, and i had no knowlege of why i maybe should put up with it.
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presley: Don't get me wrong Faramir - But you have to realize that makin this post was kind of like poking a sleeping bear right?
 
i "think" i know now how to avoid the pitfalls of idog anarchy...
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scout: I think they don't advertise prices because they don't want people who are buying a pup based on price alone
 
i think they have a few good reasons...but i think the bad results outweigh the good.

Faramir......Joel...whichever.
Same stuff that's been posted by someone very similar to yourself not so long ago...
 
There is no organized group of breeders of every type of dog under the sun, no "WalMart for Dog Purchasers"...there are:
breed clubs
group clubs
special interest clubs
registries
purebred rescues
Shelters
 
These IMO are where a person should start to look for a purebred dog. If like yourself they are looking for a mixed breed dogs then the shelters and various rescue groups are their starting point.
 
You are asking individual people, with indivdual minds and opinions on what makes a "good home" for their pups...spread far and wide across the globe, to act as one mind and sell their dogs one way...that being the way you would like them to.
 
That's simply impossible I'm afraid. Just as one person wouldn't dream of spending over 1K on a pet dog...another person wouldn't dream of selling one for less than that...and so on and so on.
 
As a responsible breeder, my duty is "not" to provide the public en mass with dogs of my breed. That is in fact...no one's "job"...anyone who wants a good dog needs to use their brain...and exert some of their own effort...to attain that goal. Now that we have the internet there are precious little reasons to NOT know why buying a dog from a pet store is bad, how to buy a dog responsibly, or etc etc.
 
Bottom line is...it is not that breeders are snooty and Cousin Earl is not...it is that the breeder is harder than Earl to get a dog from...and perhaps even *GASP* more expensive. People that don't like to be asked questions when they buy a dog...they want it quick and easy and they don't want to have to wait, don't get a dog from me, and if that's snooty so be it.
 
For every point you have made re, why breeders force people to buy from BYB's...breeders have reasons that they will not sell to JQP the way JQP would like. Both sides are at fault...both sides have bad examples and people doing things the wrong way...both sides could use improvement.
 
IMO the rep breeders have made far greater strides in placing their dogs than the public has in selecting the dogs and sources they choose to buy. Evidenced by the shelter numbers.
 
You again lump breeders together. I tell people what my pet pups cost...so did several breeders when I started looking for a dog. I did not phrase it in a way that could be misinterpreted...
 
I said 'I am just starting my search for a well bred XXXX, and I need to know if it is completely out of reach to expect to own a XXX at this time or the near future, upkeep is not a problem for me but I need to know how much to sock away for the purchase price' I received to rude replies and no refusal to email back...quite the contrary I received the answer to my questions along with qualifiers as to why and how they arrived at that price and what sort of guarantees etc were in place.
 
The selection process? Hardly limited to breeders..ever tried to adopt a Greyhound? From a shelter? They ask the same questions and have much the same criterium as most rep breeders do. They do not just give you a dog because you want it....they "judge your fitness" because it must be judged. It would be unfair to the dogs to do less. To use your shopping example...you buy your car without them checking your credit? Or is a dog to you more like groceries...you go in and buy what you want so long as you can afford it, 'that day'?
 
Perhaps if multiple people respond in a similar manner to your (general your) enquiries....there is something more to do with the method and tone, and less to do with their atittude. Sincere interest and openess to discussion is evident even in an email...from what I've seen. As are...know it all atittude, impatience, forwardness, resentfulness, judgemental mindset, etc etc etc.

Faramir, that sucks, I'm sorry that happened to you. Its like the mom who dosnt let her kid play outside for fear of who knows what, ha ha!
 

i think they have a few good reasons...but i think the bad results outweigh the good
 
This is curious...lol. Because if I post 
"Puppies are $1000" on my website...and you or someone else sees that and goes elsewhere, becuase that's just crazy talk....or you email me, we talk a bit and THEN you find out the same price and go elsewhere, what actual difference has been made in the outcome?
 
Other than you possibly coming to know the breed better because you spoke with someone who truly loves it and is not simply trying to make a buck? or are you referencing yourself, meaning you could have spent the time you spent chatting with the breeder...on something more worthwhile than learing about your chosen breed? Like playing canasta or the like?
 
Or are we even getting more interesting and you think that if the price is posted you can then haggle it down to something you would prefer to pay? LMAO

  Another reason why a reputable breeder will not discuss price and or breeding practices over the phone is because they dont want a BYB to get the information from them and then undercut thier  price and or have bs material to pass onto a possible customer..

  You have to also realise that we are talking about living biengs here and not things.A question i would pose goes like this..

  Would you buy from a breeder who was very willing to please,polite,friendly,and didnt do any kind of check to see if you would be right for this dog.You may be,but without doing a check on you,it makes it easier to have another litter,and another,and send out dogs to many people who will not provide a good home..

 Or would you buy from a not as friendly person who wanted to see your home,meet your family,know your vet,and offered refunds for spay or nuetering?tThis would be my pic.

 When i say BYB,i am talking about people who pump out litters as fast as they can sell the dogs...accidental litters is something else,but those ought to be few and far between..
  The whole good genes deal is a whole other story....buying from a reputable breeder may be cost prohibitive,and you may run into more leg work and red tape,but you are talking about a lifelong commitment and to me,it is worth the extra work,as long as i know that the breeders arnt all about the money and provide good lives for thier breeding stock and pups.

 I hade breed and show breed bigots.My dogs all were rescues and two were almost 2 years old before they came to live with us...By getting a dog from a shelter,you may not get papers,and you may get a special needs dog,but i feel better knowing i saved a life,and it feels good to help a dog get over his behaviour problems.

 

rw: 

As a responsible breeder, my duty is "not" to provide the public en mass with dogs of my breed

 
it hit me before i read your post:  RESPONSIBLE BREEDERS DON'T WANT THE GENERAL PUBLIC COMING TO THEM....by definition they don't breed many dogs during the year...they are very concerned to screen properly...and there are enough educated buyers out there to sell to...
 
that might explain why they put so little effort as a group to educate the public...if they did that, the public might actually come to them, G-d forbid!
 
anyway, it seems ridiculous to berate novice individuals for not going to a responsible breeder...at their level of knowledge, there are too many obstacles to doing so...the breeders DON'T WANT THEM!
 
i need time to swallow this thought.

I think you made some good points Faramir... I feel the same way about adopting from rescue groups because they tend to be even more condescending than breeders.

On the one hand I do understand that they want to be very careful who they place their dogs with. BUT, filling out a lengthy questionnaire, giving personal references, vet references and having your home inspected is more than a little off putting. I don't feel like I should have to go through the inquisition to adopt a dog. [&:]

ORIGINAL: MhadDog

Would you buy from a breeder who was very willing to please,polite,friendly,and didnt do any kind of check to see if you would be right for this dog.You may be,but without doing a check on you,it makes it easier to have another litter,and another,and send out dogs to many people who will not provide a good home..

Or would you buy from a not as friendly person who wanted to see your home,meet your family,know your vet,and offered refunds for spay or nuetering?tThis would be my pic."

By getting a dog from a shelter,you may not get papers,and you may get a special needs dog,but i feel better knowing i saved a life,and it feels good to help a dog get over his behaviour problems

Just a speculation, but I would suspect the "friendly" backyard breeder might not be so friendly after the sale, if there were problems.
Actually, it's surprising how many papered animals end up at shelters (or as seen in another current thread, offered for free).. As for behavior problems, I think that's a big hurdle that shelters and rescues need to overcome, or should I say the "perception" of problems. Most of the dogs in rescues and shelters are there for a bad fit between them and the owner, the owner's didn't know how to handle normal dog behavior. But some people think that shelter dogs are "damaged goods" and steer clear.

faramir, I think that in your situation, it would have been best to go with a rescue.

I definitely understand how intimidating going through an adoption process with a reputable breeder can be. I bred fancy rats for 6 years, and I can't tell you how many people, when asked why they got their rats from a pet store instead of a rescue or a reputable breeder, said it was because breeders were "too snooty," or had "ridiculous" adoption processes. I guess it's the same with dogs. The thing is, if someone is going to go through the trouble to show their animals, have them health tested and certified, and do everything else involved and spend the insane amounts of money necessary to go about breeding the RIGHT way, they're not going to let their puppies go to just anyone. I know that if someone had called me, interested in my rats, and the first thing they asked was for prices, that would immediately send up a red flag. By the time a GOOD breeder has bred and raised a litter, they are quite attached to those puppies. Sending them to a new home is like rehoming one of their own children. They're not going to just toss it into the hands of the first person who comes along who happens to have a few hundred dollars to spend. They want to match the puppy with the correct family, in the best interests of everyone involved. If someone is not willing to go through the adoption process, why should the breeder expect them to take proper care of the dog? If they don't care enough to talk to the breeder for a while, answer some questions, and generally get to know the breeder, all because they can't be bothered and want a puppy RIGHT NOW, what does that say about the kind of dog owner they will potentially make?

And in most cases, I think that's the problem. We live in a society of instant gratification. People don't want to have to plan, get to know a breeder, and possibly wait a while for a puppy. They want to run down to the pet store or answer an ad in the paper, fork over a few hundred bucks, and bring their new dog home right then. I'm not saying YOU did this, but these are often the type of people who use the "breeders are nosy and snooty" argument. The thing is, yes, with a good breeder you have to go through a much more rigorous process than with a BYB. However, if you go with a good breeder, you're gaining an invaluable support system You have someone who is willing to help you and offer guidance and support throughout the life of the animals. They know the breed better than you do and having that kind of support can prove invaluable. With a BYB, 9 times out of 10, you're on your own as soon as you hand them the money.


For someone who for whatever reason absolutely cannot or will not go through a responsible breeder, the next coice should not then be a BYB or pet store. What the heck is wrong with rescues? If you really want a specific breed, there are breed rescues out there who can help you. Most of the dogs in my life have come from shelters. I have found some of the most amazing dogs there. Many of them were purebred- like my new akita. With a little effort, you can and will find hidden treasures in shelters. I can understand why someone would rather go through a reputable breeder than a shelter, but I really can't understand why they would rather go to a BYB or pet store than a shelter. I just honestly don't get it.

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

.. I feel the same way about adopting from rescue groups because they tend to be even more condescending than breeders.

you have to remember something...the people who have been with rescue groups have seen the worst of human nature,and constanly have to think about losing good animals to kill shelters for no other reason than because they just dont have the means to keep them.If the rescue person you meet seems cynical,it is probably because they have had to see too many good animals in the wrong hands.

 that isnt to say there are not wackos out there,but the high percentage of rescue groups i know are good people looking out for the animals.