Dog Community

Need E-Collar recommendations

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 3:12:04 PM

First off, I would like to say, I do NOT need to be talked out of this, and I do NOT need flack about this. This is not a matter of containing my dog, this is not a matter of trying to perfect heeling work with my dog, or perfecting a retrieve. This has become a life and death situation.

Strauss is 29 months old, I have been working with him for over a YEAR to stop him from crittering on rabbits, using +R. He calls off deer, birds, squirrels, mice, chinchillas, rats, etc etc. He WILL NOT call off a rabbit. I've gotten no results with rabbits, and this past weekend it became "THIS MUST STOP NOW!"

I had him out with me on my paper route (There's been a weird guy following me), and we were delivering papers on a busy street (wasn't too bad considering the time of day). A rabbit went ZIP! in front of us, and he went "ZIP!" towards the road where the rabbit went. There was a car coming, and I yanked him back. I always have him tethered securely around my waist and on his prong collar, simply for more control while I have free hands to deliver my papers...it was a close call.

I've lost one dog to a car, I will NOT lose my heart dog to one. Today, he jumped a fence for a rabbit, after discovering he couldn't go through it. My dog does not jump fences. At least, he didn't jump fences. Before you ask, he was NOT unattended. I was out there with him. I've never seen my dog jump a fence or even think about it....he did it.

I need to end this and I need to end it NOW and I need to make it memorable. Overall I'm not a fan (I don't even like doing the earpinch for the retrieve), but E-collars have their time and place....and this is the time and place. I know how to properly use one, but I don't know what kind to buy. I need suggestions and recommendations, not criticisms (though I'm reasonably sure they'll come about anyway).

jetty

Posted : 9/24/2006 3:35:48 PM

I'll be interested to see what e-collars people recommend! A friend of mine is having a similar "call-off" issue (I think its more of a general recall problem) with her dog.

From reading your posts I know you do A LOT with Strauss so I have no doubts that you have tried everything to avoid using an e-collar! I hope it works!

Violetta Madej

Posted : 9/24/2006 4:49:46 PM

E-collars are cruel..they should be banned as they don't encourage positive reinforcement to teach a dog, but fear.

If I were you, I would contact a trainer..I'm sure there is a positive method out there that will in fact give you quicker results and are much more humane than an e-collar. Please get in touch with someone and don't get this useless "training tool"

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 4:56:15 PM

E-collars are cruel..they should be banned as they don't encourage positive reinforcement to teach a dog, but fear.

That's your opinion. The E-collar has its time and place, and I really don't appreciate you criticizing my decision with your first post. I know how to use an E-collar, I can't afford a trainer, and quite frankly, I'm not going to get a trainer for a problem with rabbits. If he has to be afraid of rabbits to "get it" that rabbits aren't fun, so be it. I'm not risking any more jumped fences or darts to the street.

My dog, my decision.

mrv

Posted : 9/24/2006 5:30:43 PM

By no means is any training tool perfect. However, there are times when an e collar may be an appropraite training tool. The problem is folks using them because they are lazy. I assure you, there are plenty of hunting dogs who literally jump out of their skin with positive excitement when the e collar comes out. It means work.

An e collar is very appropriate when aversion training (snake bite prevention) and interupting trash behaviors (chasing cars, running livestock) in a which an e collar can make a difference.

It is all about the humans, not the tools. There are times when punishment is an option. In this situation, rabbits and prey drive are very hard to interupt. Part of the reason, the prey drive over rides the value of the reinforcers available to the person. Although I dont use an e collar for herding, I have had to use aversives (the milder, the better) to train. If at some time in the future an e collar may offer me the ability to correct on a 300 yard outrun, yes I will use it.

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 6:32:51 PM

Thank you mrv. That is exactly what I set out to do. I am like you, and these days prefer more mild actions....but when it comes to life and death, you need drastic measures. I don't know WHAT it is about rabbits, he's just nuts about them. Even if there is a rabbit just sitting in a cage (like at Petco), if it hops, Strauss just loses his concentration. He screams at it, he circles, and it is exceedingly hard to bring him away from it.

I've tried to modify his behavior using +R with the buns at Petco, but in the end, all I was doing was stressing out the poor floppies, and that's not fair to them. Ideally what I'm looking for is a remote trainer, which a couple of people have described to me in PMs (thank you). I think I'll be joining a couple hunting forums since they know more about e-collars more than anybody else (IME).

Strauss is an extremely biddable dog, and I think it'll only take 2 or 3 zaps to understand "The hoppies are baaaaad news!" and then I'll never have to use it again. This is not a quick fix I'm looking for (not truly), but when other methods have failed, and my dog is jumping fences and dashing towards the road with me attached, something has to be done.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 9/24/2006 8:29:02 PM

I just wanted to offer some support, b/c I'm sure you're going to get some avid un-support. I'm very much against negative reinforcement for "normal" situations, but you know Strauss, and it has become a serious situation. He's got a solid temperament, and you're not going to ruin him with the collar. You know better than to do that. Good luck. I hope it works, for him.

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:09:02 PM

Thank you Jennie. This isn't about breaking my dog or destroying his prey drive etc etc. This is about HIM learning self control and to have a bit of will power.

I would like to state that while we are having prey issues with both rabbits and dogs during agility class, the dogs in agility class aren't seen as high value to him, and the +R IS working! I have not given up on the clicker training during class to teach him how to control himself while other dogs run. It is the rabbits that are the big issue.

Every dog has a breaking point. I know that. This will not be Strauss's, I just know that. Heck, Strauss has fallen off equipment and taken diggers going off jumps to a contact obstacle. Nasty diggers at that. He was completely undeterred and immediately got back up to finish his sequence. This dog wants to work, loves to work, HAS to work, and he's not going to fall apart like other dogs I know because he gets "nicked" (that's what it's called when you give a correction on an e-collar).

I can promise that he'll come out fine and he will be the better for it

Violetta Madej

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:29:24 PM

I simply stated my opinion on e-collars and offered some advice on what else you could do instead...I didn't criticize how you treat or train your dog.

If you're offended, than you should know better. This is a forum, and I believe I did nothing wrong when I suggested that you see a trainer as another option. If you don't welcome people's opinions and suggestions other than what you're looking for, then why are you posting on a forum?

Les Farmerson

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:29:39 PM

Xeph--

We got an e-collar for our staffie mix (Libby) on the reccomendation of our trainer, and it is the most effective training device we've ever used. She used to recall like a charm on the long line, but once that leash was off--see ya. We got the e-collar, and it took one week before she would recall reliably every time off-leash. We have only had to reinforce a handful of times since then (once she was in full pursuit of a deer--I shouted a recall from 400 yards, which she heard--head turned--but ignored. The e-collar reminder her of her duty and she came back directly.)

Our trainer recomended Dogtra, Innotek, or Sportdog. We got a Sportdog, and it's great. The collars are affordable (<$200) and very long-range. Importantly, the stimulation level is easily adjustable so you can spike it for a highly distracted dog and back it off for an attentive one. There is a paging feature, which is great for really long-distance recalls.

Don't listen to the naysayers. For very stubborn, pain-resistant dogs that can tolerate (and require) relatively intense (compared to more pliable dogs) correction to modify behavior, and e-collar can be a great tool. It's like a prong-collar--nothing wrong with it inherently, you just have to understand how much correction your dog needs, how much they can handle emotionally, and use with wisdom and discretion.

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:38:57 PM

If you don't welcome people's opinions and suggestions other than what you're looking for, then why are you posting on a forum?

I don't welcome other people's opinions when I don't ask for them, and when I clearly state in my original post what I DO want. What I wanted was recommendations for e-collars, not opinions on how bad they are.

Ask anybody here, and they'll tell you I'm open to suggestions when I ask for them! I did not ask for suggestions here other than what people could recommend for e-collars. If you'd REALLY read my post, you'd know that I'd tried other things already, and they were not working effectively for my dog in this particular case. Instead you choose to tell me that you think e-collars should be banned and that they're cruel. How does that help me? It doesn't. I don't welcome opinions other than what I'm looking for in certain cases because it doesn't help my situation.

To those of you who recommended e-collars, I've gotten a strong backing for the Dogtra and Innotek collars, but the ones I'm most interested in are the Dogtra and Sportdog, so I'll take a closer look. Danke danke danke to those who understand my plight.

By the way, since I've got a thread open, I may as well take a chance to brag. The last two weeks at agility class, Strauss would jump up at me and bark, but there was a lot less body slamming, AND there was absolutely no biting! Progress! Now we're working on the barking and screaming...xD Strauss is also "seeing" the weavepoles now, and is weaving like a BC maniac!

ladiebug

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:40:50 PM

I understand where you're coming from b/c Peanut was digging out under our fence to escape the yard (1.5 acres), daily! Living close to canals where gators have been captured, I did NOT want to find remains of our dog one day, or find she was hit by a car.
Draico would trot out of the yard every time the gate was opened, we managed to train him to stop following us, but when someone came over and the gate was opened, he ran right past the fence line to greet them. Again, I didn't want our dog to get hit by a car!
We decided to instal an invisible fence along our conventional fence, and I'm happy to say, it has contained both dogs! We shopped around and found the best deal, price wise at [linkhttp://www.safepets.com]www.safepets.com[/link], for an Innotek system. We needed waterproof collars, preferred rechargeable batteries, and needed lightning/surge protection, which they carry. Safepets/Innotek has a pretty good selection, the instructions were written and on DVD, and they have a wonderful support staff to answer all questions. Good luck.[

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Violetta Madej

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:52:22 PM

Well in that case, I'm sorry that you got so irritated that you could barely control yourself...oh boy...

I thought you said you couldn't afford a trainer for your dog but your dog is in agility classes? You don't have to answer this question by the way...I don't really care.

Anyways, do as you wish..I simply stated my opinion and an option so its all good.. *shrugs* good luck to you and your dog

Xeph

Posted : 9/24/2006 9:57:59 PM

I thought you said you couldn't afford a trainer for your dog but your dog is in agility classes? You don't have to answer this question by the way...I don't really care.

That's correct. I can't afford a personal trainer that is going to charge me out the backside to come to my house and tell me my dog has a high prey drive and needs an e-collar. Figured that out for free on my own. Agility classes are included with my dog club membership....a whopping $25. I'd call that affordable, and the dog was enrolled in classes long before I decided to use an e-collar.

My dog and I do a lot of stuff together. Tracking, obedience, rally, agility, schutzhund, a lot of stuff. Trainers around here are a dime a dozen, and that is exactly what they're worth. A Dime. I wouldn't trust one of em to work with my dog. The trainers at my club all suggested an e-collar in the end.

They feel the same way about them I do. Don't neccessarily care for them, but realize their place. Maybe I just don't care for your suggestion because your mind isn't even open to the idea that an e-collar can be appropriate for some dogs given the circumstances and it isn't going to kill the dog, especially after I stated I'd tried other things that involved +R.

Violetta Madej

Posted : 9/24/2006 10:09:29 PM

*shrugs* alright...