Musings on expectations of behaviour

what we do with our dogs - start my instituting basic knowledge, then increase our expectations in relation to the level of that knowledge

 
This is a good thought.  I wish dogs could talk people!!!  I would love to hear what they would say about this stuff.

My dogs definitely sense this and I've always had trust issues until very recently. A dog that trusts you is confident with the world around him. Likewise you'll feel more confident with a dog that trusts you.

 
I agreed with your whole post but this jumped out at me. I have a fear aggressive dog and trust is definately an issue. I've had him since he was 9 weeks old and all seemed great until he turned about 8 months. After two incidents I had him(and my handling skills) evaluated by a trainer. He is now three and we have worked hard to get where we are. The trainer was impressed by how much "vocabulary" he had when we started and also commented on how in tuned we were with each other. Both she said would help considerably with our goals. He is an intense dog and always at my side. He learns quickly and is very willing. He is at a place where he is interested in meeting new people when he see's them..but nervous. This is the point where I am stuck. I just can't find that "Zen" place for myself. I don't know if I will ever trust him enough to be relaxed when new people approach him. I know what he is capable of, I know that it only takes a split second..I know what would happen to him if he bit someone, I feel responsible for him and the safety of every person who comes into contact with him. It all swims in my mind when we are approached by someone and I know that he reads me. So I question myself about my expectations, Am I limiting his ability to progress? Should I leave it at this level? There are so many variables with this dog and his behavior in certain situations. I know what things will never happen..he will never be off leash in a public area, dog parks are out, he will never be okay with kids..all the goals I had for us when I first got him were re-evaluated..he will not be doing competitive agility or flyball, no tracking, no showing in obedience or getting his CGC..I have let go of these things.
I'm just stuck now at how big the comfort zone will be. He is my heart and soul boy and I have no regrets in getting him..but I do ask myself quite alot if I am limiting his progress or if this is as good as it gets with him. I would rather be responsible in keeping him and others safe than taking risks.
He knows tons of tricks, has completed a beginning flyball course and gets to play with our other dogs on occasion, he has completed an
intermediate obedience class, goes to work with me, and is fine on-leash in public with many situations. He is the biggest clown ever at home..loves to make a person laugh. He is loving and loyal and has very nice manners. I have managed to find many things that I CAN do with him, such as carting..so he is not sitting at home living a boring life.
 
I also hate to hear people remark about what their dogs can't learn..I think in most cases people don't give their dogs enough credit or put enough effort into learning how to communicate with their dogs. I do think in most cases it is the person who needs the training.
My dog is one of a litter of eight..two of his litter mates are also fear aggressive so I believe genetics has a part in his issues. He was socialized up the wazoo as a puppy, went everywhere with me..so at some point I have to think that there is only so far I can go with this dog expectation wise. We continue to work on the steps in the book Cautious Canine and I sometimes call the trainer for advice. I will always stay on top of that and he will always be learning new things, but there are certain areas where I just simply can't convince myself it will ever be safe for him to be in.
 
"A dog that trusts you is confident in the world around him"
 
Thats the phrase that caught my attention....do you think that fear aggression may be the exception? Or do you think I haven't accomplished a complete trust with my dog yet?
 
PS I would love to see more photos of your dogs herding =)

Glenda - LOL, wouldn't we all like to have dogs as well trained as Anne's?
 
Maisey - I think what your talking about may relate to the point I suggested above (though I know you were quoting someone else); that expectations do have to be in relation to a sensible evaluation of your own dog's abilities.  From what you've said, it doesn't sound to me like you have limited your dog in any way, but I am not a trainer or a behaviourist, and everything that I've written here are my own armchair opinions.  Maybe Anne will see this and weigh in on the aggression issue?  I agree that if 2 of his littermates have aggression issues, there may be a genetic factor there, but I really don't know enough about the subject to say for sure.  From what I can tell, you're simply being reasonable in what you expect from your dog.  There is a fine line between wanting them to live up to high expectations and setting ourselves up for disappointment - the latter will, of course, always be counterproductive. 
 
I'm really interested in everyone's thoughts here...thanks for chiming in.
 
Kate

Wow Becca, that was eloquent. I got my Epiphany thanks to Bones Would Fall From the Sky, Rosetta Bone, and Culture clash. What a relationship shift between myself and my dogs, it at times feels spiritual.

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't; you're right"

I love that and boy is it true! Give dad a kiss, he's made you unstoppable.

IMHO, because I am CONVINCED they can tell when we are able to be pushed.

Absolutely

Hi everybody,  I've been enthralled with this conversation, and just felt like adding my two cents worth. I'm not a great trainer, but I've taught the occasional dog obedience classe since I was 16, and the thing that has struck me most was how dogs are much better at training people then vice versa! So many "stupid" dogs have in fact got everything going their way. They get on the furniture, they go about their merry way and only come when it suits them, and the owners are clueless. An owner in class will leave his dog in a sit stay, and not be able to see when his dog is preparing to get up, when to my eyes the dog is giving out all kinds of signals! Therein lies the problem I think. Our dogs watch us constantly since that is how they communicate with each other (and with scent, as per Ron2).  All I have to do is think about doing something with the sheep, and suddenly 5 Border Collies are standing at the door wagging their tails wanting to be the first to go help. My husband and I watch! We watch the sheep to make sure all is well, we watch the horses to make sure they are playing  nice with each other, we watch the dogs! Is the water dish empty? The dogs let us know with a look. Is Mirk sleeping in Bill's bed? Bill just walks out of the bedroom with a certain look, and either my husband or I will yell down the hall for Mirk to get in his own bed. In other words, the animals are "talking" to us all the time, we just need to listen with our eyes and instincts. In response to Maisey, it's great that you are able to do so much with your boy, but yes you may not be able to overcome that last obstacle. Yourself! In my opinion your fear will continue to handicap your dog. This is not a criticism! We all have are little holes, 'cause we're human. I have trouble when riding a green horse, since I find the "boogers" first! I show those colts that the tractor is a horse eating monster with my tense legs and back! It's hard for me to relax when I see the tractor, so I am the problem! My husband has no problems with the same horse because he expects the horse to trust him, and they do. Keep trying to relax and trust your dog, and yourself. That's what I do when riding, and I am getting better!
 

"A dog that trusts you is confident in the world around him"

Thats the phrase that caught my attention....do you think that fear aggression may be the exception?

Fear aggression is really tough, as you know.  It's an ongoing process working with these dogs. BUT, I had a severely fear aggressive girl that I did flyball, competitive discdog, agility, and herding with, plus she could have gotten a CGC (we took the class and passed the "pretest" but the actual test was the week I had my first baby).

I also know another person with a dog that was worse than Trim - he had other fear issues besides the aggression and he operates more or less in the normal world (that is the dog Karen Overall helped my friend with).  When she first ended up with this dog, she noticed my stories about working with my Trim, and sought my comfort and help.  Everyone was telling her to euth her dog - she wanted to know there was hope and a future for him - and quality of life.

What saved Trim - and my friend's dog - was knowing their jobs and their place. Routine, routine, routine is the lifeline for dogs who don't generalize at all (imagine if you were never sure, no matter how many times you went over the bridge safely, that it would hold you up). 

Something my mentor taught me a long time ago (he helped me with Trim early on) was that dogs are transparent.  If you teach them to act physically as if everything was OK, then they will accept that.  In other words, I schooled Trim to lay down quietly and look up at me if she was uncomfortable.  Within seconds, she would not only look comfortable, but literally would be comfortable!

From my perspective, I was busy making sure she was reacting correctly.  This gave me something to think about and something concrete to react to.  I wasn't worrying about whether I was helping her psychological problems - I just reacted to what was going on at the moment - was she doing her job or not?  And this helped her to a very great extent.

Eventually, Trim lost her home here because the weakness in this lies in the times when Trim could not connect with me (or another experienced handler).  One day at flyball practice I was distracted by an emergency and left her in a down stay.  Someone came over and gave her a full body hug (!!!) and Trim bit her very seriously.  Then a few months later I was ill, my toddler son let her out of her crate during a thunderstorm, and chased Trim around (she is thunderphobic) until she was cornered and turned and bit him twice.

She is now in a very regimented situation - she works on a military base - and this is best for her.  The thing is, if you cannot offer 100% consistency in how you handle this type of dog, if you can't control 100% of his interactions with the world, that's when danger happens.  My friend's dog is never apart from her, literally (other than when she's at work and the dog is alone in her apartment). 

On the other hand, there's great hope if you CAN structure all his contact with the outside world, that you can expand your expectations. 

I'll never forget the day I was at a sheepdog clinic with Trim laying quietly beside my seat (off leash).  I was listening carefully to the instructor (my mentor) and didn't notice a big dog had come stalking up and positioned himself right over Trim, trying to pick a fight.  I felt holes being burned in my head and looked down right into Trim's eyes.  "Help!" she was clearly saying, but she was staying still under circumstances that even a normal dog would have taken as a battle call.  Before I could move, Jack pointed at the dog's owner and yelled at her to get her dog.  Then he grinned at me - he'd seen the whole thing and was very pleased at Trim's progress. 

Two years before, she couldn't be within fifty feet of a dog without going nuts on the leash, trying to attack.  By the time she was four, she could stand in a crowd of dogs and people waiting to go into the flyball lanes without even taking her eyes off the action in the ring.

I hope this helped. It was kind of rambly but I'm kinda tired.

PS I would love to see more photos of your dogs herding =)

Here's my new boy, Cord.

Taking 'em away . . .


Bringing 'em back . . .


Good boy Cord!



There's tons more at [linkhttp://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v296/brookcove/]http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v296/brookcove/[/link]

I wanted to add pictures of my sweet girl Trim - she'll be ten in February (I can't believe it!):

Doing her job - runway safety - clearing off egrets before air maneuvers (a potential hazard to the jet planes):


Showing off her safety medal - awarded by the Pentagon:



Edited to scale image - yikes, that was huge, sorry . . .

ORIGINAL: Benedict

Corvus - while I agree with your point here, I'd like to respectfully disgree with the remark about "turning a dog into a lab"...Labs have a job too - they are bred to retrieve.  That doesn't just equate itself to being used as gun dogs or FT dogs - Ben retrieves everything he can get his paws on around the house, even things I don't want him to have.  To some, that trait could be unbearable, which would mean that for them, a lab would not be the ideal family pet.  Labs ARE a specialised breed, it's just that most of the time they're not put to work in the way they should be.

Sorry Kate and other lab owners! I didn't mean it quite like that. I was groping for a dog that people think makes a great pet. I personally could never keep up with a lab or any kind of retriever and I'm well aware that a lot of people get them expecting a great pet and don't realise that they take 2 years or so to grow out of puppy behaviour. Labs are popular for good reasons, though.

OT Becca I love the pictures, esp. Ben and the baby sheep and Ann w/ the kitten

2 years or so to grow out of puppy behaviour

 
And I've heard others describe them as the eternal puppy.
 
Around here, among some of my friends, they are used in hunting or the equivalent, field trials, which involves similar behavior but also includes off-leash obedience and retrieval and recall to gain points. Others just stay in the backyard or kennel.
 

Trim gets a "hooraw!" and a doggy salute.
 
What a good girl, she found her niche.
 
 

In response to Maisey, it's great that you are able to do so much with your boy, but yes you may not be able to overcome that last obstacle. Yourself! In my opinion your fear will continue to handicap your dog. This is not a criticism! We all have are little holes, 'cause we're human. I have trouble when riding a green horse, since I find the "boogers" first! I show those colts that the tractor is a horse eating monster with my tense legs and back! It's hard for me to relax when I see the tractor, so I am the problem! My husband has no problems with the same horse because he expects the horse to trust him, and they do. Keep trying to relax and trust your dog, and yourself. That's what I do when riding, and I am getting better!

 
Smiles...I also have horses. So I get your analogy..but somehow in my head that translates different for me. My trainer has also talked to me trying to use horses as an example. I have had horses all my life and I'm very comfortable on them..even green horses. I think that it's so ingrained for me...I can feel when a horse is going to blow up before it does it. Maybe it boils down to ..reading a horse is something I grew up doing so I feel more confident. I've never had a fear aggressive dog and I was never taught to read a dog, so it's been all new territory. I don't feel so confident! It also feels different to me in that..if a horse blows up it is just me or the horse thats going to get hurt, if my dog loses it another person could get hurt.
I know that you are correct about expectations, I see that with my horses and I see it with my other dogs..even with Witt, but on a more limited scale..which is where I start to hesitate. This whole conversation has made me think yet again about the path Witt and I choose to travel..I'm grateful for that. I think his chance for the greatest success is in constantly re-evaluating and growing..both him and I. I won't give up trying and will remain open to anything that may help us move along the path.

Becca, thank you for your reply and the pictures..Trim is beautiful.
 
I have also had people in the past tell me that I should put Witt down. I have two children and boy did my mother make me feel like I was a rotten mother for keeping him. My girls are 14 and 17 now and the eldest has taken some classes with me, if I died tomorrow..Witt would go with her. She understands him and the commitment it takes to keep him and others safe. (she wants to be a dog trainer [])
Some of those same people comment today about how far we have come..they "can't believe it" they also add that they would never have taken on that responsibility
 
I have an Aussie mix that I do flyball with and when I got Witt thats what I had in mind for him. He took the beginning flyball classes my team offers and did great. That first class does not go into passing..so he learned that at home with our other dogs. I decided not to do flyball with Witt for several reasons..I don't trust him off leash in certain instances. He has never started a fight with another dog, but he won't tolerate being pushed by another dog..once the other dog starts it, he won't back down. At a tournament my Aussie had a dog from the other team cross over lanes and they met at the box with both dogs trying for the ball..my dog got the ball first and the other dog chased him, nipping at his back legs. A incident like that with Witt, would not have ended as it did with my Aussie who returned to me. Witt would have handled it very differently. As if thats not enough reason...Witt grew into a dog much tankier than I expected. He is 21" at the shoulder and 71 pounds. He is not overweight. When he hits the box the whole thing moves back about a foot. He just hits it with such gusto..I think a career in flyball would definately lead to joint issues. He plays flyball at home for fun and loves it. It wasn't hard for me to let that go.
 
I do not see Witt as dog aggressive, he likes other dogs and wants to play. He is a Catahoula mix and plays really rough..and LOUD. He sounds like a Tasmanian Devil when he plays. It scares other owners, and some dogs don't want to lay that rough. When he was a pup and an older dog would get after him for rude behavior "take it down a notch pup", Witt wouldn't back down and it would escalate. I've only ever seen him back down to one dog and it was a Cocker Spaniel. I remember thinking.."yay..finally he learns a lesson". It's just never happened again. Witt has several dogs that will play at his level and we have play dates with them, but he definately doesn't get to go to the dog park. We have a female Aussie mix that plays with him beautifully and I have seen over time and with some maturing that Witt has learned to adjust his intense play with her. I love to watch the body language between them..she is so subtle and he is so animated..it's very interesting.
 
"The thing is, if you cannot offer 100% consistency in how you handle this type of dog, if you can't control 100% of his interactions with the world, that's when danger happens.  My friend's dog is never apart from her, literally (other than when she's at work and the dog is alone in her apartment).  "
 
This is how I have been handling Witt, we have a routine, he goes with me to work, and I control every interaction in his day. I keep everything contained. I work in a grooming shop and this is not hard for me to do. It's when I step a bit out of this routine and contained situation that I lose the "Zen" state.
I can actually take Witt through a huge crowd on leash and you would think he was a therapy dog...as long as I am in control of the situation, he is fine. It's when someone asks if they can pet him..I generally say no. It is that moment that I consider saying yes that I get nervous..it's that step I am stuck on. People can stand in front of us and offer him treats and we can chat etc., but there is always that moment when they want to cross the line I have drawn. Then I question myself. Is it because I am not comfortable that Witt takes on the body language he does..or is it his body language that makes me uncomfortable and wary?
 
 
"I'll never forget the day I was at a sheepdog clinic with Trim laying quietly beside my seat (off leash).  I was listening carefully to the instructor (my mentor) and didn't notice a big dog had come stalking up and positioned himself right over Trim, trying to pick a fight.  I felt holes being burned in my head and looked down right into Trim's eyes.  "Help!" she was clearly saying, but she was staying still under circumstances that even a normal dog would have taken as a battle call.  Before I could move, Jack pointed at the dog's owner and yelled at her to get her dog.  Then he grinned at me - he'd seen the whole thing and was very pleased at Trim's progress."
 
An awesome memory.
In Witt's case..off leash he would have taken the challenge, on leash he would have looked to me. In flyball class there was a dog who jumped Witt several times. An oversized border collie with cluless owners. I kept trying to keep a safe distance from the dog, but they had a flexi lead on him and would let him roam. The first time he jumped Witt from behind..we had our backs to him. I stupidly thought that they got the message to keep their dog close and space out. The second time it happened..I was expecting it and stepped between taking control of their dog for them..then I verbally asked them to please keep his leash short. The third incident I was about to come unglued on them when the instructor stepped in, took their flexi lead away and handed them an 8" strap leash, explained to them that my dog was going to injure their dog .."there is no way your dog is going to come out on top". She tried to help them understand their dogs behavior and what things they needed to be doing to prevent/change it. The rest of the night, Witt kept a wary eye on the dog and I was unable to get his focus back. The people never came back to class.
 
I appreciate your "rambling"....it's so helpful to say and think this stuff out loud, and getting feedback is just so what I need.
Thank you.
 

 
 

Maisey, I'm jealous! The way you describe how you get along with horses is just like my husband, calm, relaxed, in control, knowing what to expect. I was raised with dogs, and they are so transparent to me, whereas the horses are still something of a mystery, especially when I'm on their back!