Dog Community

Musings on expectations of behaviour

Posted : 9/3/2006 4:20:24 PM

This may ramble a little, it's just something that's been circling around my brain recently. Please feel free to agree, disagree, or tell me I'm an idiot. [

]

I've been thinking a lot about the way we expect our dogs to behave...not in terms of what we want in an intellectual sense, necessarily, but the way we portray those wants to our dogs. For example, to borrow a train of thought from another thread, when I take Ben to the park and he meets other dogs, I am relaxed and happy. I always check that the dogs are OK with others, especially puppies, but I expect that Ben will be able to handle himself, even with a much bigger dog. Getting anxious without due cause doesn't, in my opinion, serve any purpose. Ben will smell my stress, become stressed, and create a problem that we'll both have to deal with.

Admittedly, since I got Ben as a puppy, he was something of a "blank slate", but I know people with rescues who have encountered the same sort of issue. They got a dog who, the shelter reported was surrendered because it barked, or chewed furniture, or didn't like men with beards, or any of a thousand other reasons. Rather than prepare themselves for an adversarial relationship with the dog regarding these issues, they simply set about expecting that although the change might not be immediate, the dog was capable of learning new behaviours. It might take time, but the expectation was there that these problems could and would be overcome with time, patience and training. Dogs like this may transform to a greater or lesser extent - some may never completely get over dog aggression for example, but may get to the point where they can be walked past another dog without incident. The same is true for breeds that are inherently more wary of other dogs, whether raised by the same person from a puppy or not. They may never be the life of the party at the dog park, but they can be taught some degree of manners.

This leads me to believe that maybe some (although not all) "problem" dogs are not just a result of bad or nonexistent training, but also owners not giving their dogs enough credit. These are creatures that have survived for thousands of years as a species - doesn't that have to mean that they are capable of learning pretty much anything we could possibly want to teach them? I can't count the number of times I have met people at the park, or in other social situations, who say that their dog is "sweet and lovely, but for the life of me I can't teach him not to steal my shoes (or insert unwanted behaviour of your choice)". That statement IS true, but the emphasis is not where the speaker thinks it is. It's the person who can't teach it, not the dog who can't learn it. Blaming the dog implies, to me, a certain measure of arrogance. We are smarter because we are human - it's the damn dog that's stupid. Some dogs, even some breeds, are possibly more clever than others - but that's true for people too. Just because a person scores off the charts on an IQ test doesn't mean their life is lived more purely than someone who was useless in school but paints pictures that move people to tears. Possibly an extreme example, but then again maybe not. Both of those people, though different, can tie their own shoelaces and count out the right change when buying a carton of milk. Some dogs/breeds may have trouble in certain areas - I have heard that sighthounds can have less-than-perfect recall, so owners have to be aware of that. Catering to a dog's strengths and weaknesses is no bad thing, as long as the belief is there that the dog has a right to be trained to the extent to which they are capable of learning.

If you got this far, thanks for reading my rant lol. It basically stemmed out of a conversation with someone this afternoon about not being able to train her dog out of the habit of begging for food, though as I said the issue has been on my mind for a while.

Let the debate begin...

Kate

jones

Posted : 9/3/2006 5:07:21 PM

I agree with you and I think that was well put. Attitude is a big, important factor in our ability to be successful in whatever we are trying to do with our dogs (or with other people, or with most things in life!). Expect good results and you are more likely to get them.

I believe that the a large percentage of training "problems" are really communication problems, and another big chunk of them are due to inconsistency (intermittent reinforcement for unwanted behaviors). By communication problems I mean not just that dogs aren't grasping their owners' commands, but that dogs get confused, frustrated, and upset by poor communication from their owners and that in itself can cause misbehavior. Clicker training was a big eye opener for me when it comes to the importance of clear communication - my dog's rate of learning jumped up exponentially when I started using the clicker. He wasn't a slow learner, he was just confused by the vagueness of my pre-clicker training methods - even though they seemed precise to me, dogs are so much more attuned to detail that he didn't see it that way.

brookcove

Posted : 9/3/2006 5:53:48 PM

Recently I was at a training clinic and the big epiphany I had there was that I was thinking about myself too much and not being dog focused. I realized the big difference between me and my trainer (besides like 50 years of experience, lol) was that he simply relaxes and reacts as each situation comes up and then lets it go, ready to react the next time.

He doesn't agonize over whether what he did was effective - he just judges by what the dog's attitude is (relaxed and understanding? nervous? tense? giving out "calming signals?") and adjusts his approach from there. For instance, he will never repeat a correction if the dog is offering calming signals, no matter how subtle - he will "take" whatever the dog "gives" him subsequently, no matter how far off it is from what he is asking. Remember we are talking about sheepdog training here so the behaviors he's asking for are potentially life-or-death.

React, register the dog's reaction, and go on. A dog only thinks in the moment and so does a good trainer. Don't wonder why, notice what.

My trainer can get into a dog's head so quickly that it seems supernatural - but it's because the dogs trust him after the first ten seconds to two minutes (depending on how screwed up the dog is previously! [

]). After he's gained the dog's trust, he can do things like work a deaf dog with no apparent body language and once I changed the name of a dog I handed over to him and the dog was responding happily to that name after the first time he used it! And still does, in fact (his previous name made him drop in mid stride and roll over and pee [

]).

By contrast I'd ruminate over what action I needed to take when something happened, react way too slowly (and too late), and then spend some time mentally apologizing to the dog (and sheep) and second guessing myself - meanwhile totally missing any subsequent times that my dog had done it right, most likely. Not to mention thinking about how ridiculous I looked in general.

All this made me even more nervy and jumpy and that really screws up a dog's confidence. Too much time spent communicating with and thinking about my own precious self, and very little time actually trying to think with my dog.

My dogs definitely sense this and I've always had trust issues until very recently. A dog that trusts you is confident with the world around him. Likewise you'll feel more confident with a dog that trusts you.

Knowing this has made me a little better, I hope. At least I'm at the stage where I can see what I'm doing wrong. I'm supposed to be listening to what my dogs are telling me and they seem to be saying I'm on the right path. [

]

By the way, my trainer is that way about life in general, for the most part. He rarely gets upset or stews about the "what ifs" and he's always got something nice to say about a person. Lots to emulate there, for me. [

]

Benedict

Posted : 9/4/2006 6:40:03 AM

jones - I definitely agree on the clicker training issue. I've heard people dismiss it as a "fad", and it may not work for every dog, but it is the way forward it so many circumstances. Ben reacts SO well to it.

A dog only thinks in the moment and so does a good trainer. Don't wonder why, notice what.

An excellent way of looking at it. I think sometimes it's all too easy to forget that as we are working with a different species we may NEVER fully understand the "why" of a dog doing - or not doing - something we ask of it. Yes it's possible to get a food-motivated dog into a sit by luring it with a treat.....but it's not advisable or even practical to do that for every sit for the rest of the animal's life...which means it is necessary to foster a relationship in which the dog will cooperate because it WANTS to - and we may never fully know what goes on inside a dog's brain to make it want to.

Kate

ron2

Posted : 9/4/2006 7:19:05 AM

Bravo to both and Rebecca. That is the place I am headed to. Not only do I strive to observe Shadow better, read his cues, work with his behavior and lead it to me, rather than into adversarial stances, but also, as always, accept breed limitations and have a lifestyle that accomodates those needs.

Example, there is a reason that you do not walk Huskies off leash. They have a bred desire to run fast for long periods of time and can ignore training when it suits them. Even an off-leash obedience award winning Husky once keyed on something interesting and bolted, never to be seen again. By the time you can get in your car and get going, they could be 5 miles away in a direction you haven't thought or can't get to and they don't always have traffic sense. Another case involved a guy's Husky who got out. 30 minutes later, a friend who lives 30 miles away called him and told him his dog was hanging around there. The dog average 30 mph for more tha 10 minutes. He may have sniffed here and there and then approached 40 mph at times to reach that average. That, and running as the crow flies.

As Anne put it, pack dynamics can change with the addition and subtraction of members of the group. And not all dogs will get along all the time. For example, if you have a sled dog who desires to be alpha and is a bit rambunctious to get to that spot, the dog park may not be the place to go. And accept that "loss" as part of your lifestyle. I once saw a Rhodesian Ridgeback (brindle-coated) with temperment issues and the rescue person warned that he would have to be in a one-pet home. That doesn't mean he could not be adopted. It just meant that a particular lifestyle was most suitable for him and that trying to "rehab" him well enough to go to a dog park wasn't necessarily meant to be a priority.

I don't think of myself as a dog whisperer, connotations to the NGC show aside, but I aim to be a good dog listener.

Ruth

Posted : 9/4/2006 3:17:16 PM

I definetely think the owner/trainer's expectations are critical. I was at the beach a few weeks ago with family and friends. There were several dogs. None had any training. They had nice enough temperaments and decent manners, but not any obedience.

Anyway, I picked one Lab and started working with him. We started with sit. I didn't even have any treats, but I asked the dog to sit, and sometimes he did. He probably learned it somewhere along the line. So whenever I saw him, I would call him over and ask him to sit, and make a big fuss over him when he did. He caught on quick and was sitting just fine most of the time. Well, the dog's owners and some close family saw me do this a couple of times. And each time, they told me not to bother: "Oh, he doesn't know how to do that, don't bother trying. He's too dumb." They kept saying this even as the dog was sitting for me! (Not the brightest dog, for sure -- a very poorly-bred rescue lab, needed HD surgery as a puppy, kind of a slow, dopey personality -- but certainly smart enough to sit!) Anyway, my point is, yes, it is all about expectations. That poor dog will never sit for his owners, becuase they don't expect him to. The dog knows it, so he will ignore them. He doesn't ignore me, becuase I expect him to obey the command, and he understands that. So he does! Sometimes it's just that simple.

Aina

Posted : 9/4/2006 5:57:05 PM

"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't; you're right"

Forgot who origionally said that, but my dad says it a lot. It seems a lot of times we defeat ourselves by saying it can't be done. And it is with more than just dog training. If you remember, people *can't* fly, but the Wright brothers invinted a succesful airplane. What would have happened if they had listened to everyone who said they couldn't do it? We could not have air travel today if they did.
Now, you have to be realistic and not stupid, but saying something can't be done makes that so, and is self-defeating.

If I am rambling or you can't understand me, it is probably because I am really tired for some strange reason, sorry.

glenmar

Posted : 9/4/2006 6:20:57 PM

When we walk the dogs in town, if DH is having problems handling a dog, we trade. He halfway expects them to pull at the start, while I expect that they will walk nicely without being put in a heel. For me, they walk nicely.

Today, last walk, we had Thor and Thunder in town. We passed a house with two dogs in the backyard....the larger was tied and I guessed that they both were. Not so...as we passed the house, out from the far side of the house comes running a little black lab puppy wanting to play. I expected my boys to be nice to the pup and they were. I then handed the leash I had to Todd, and told the boys that I EXPECTED them to stay with Dad, while mom took the puppy back home and they did. I EXPECTED the pup to come with me over staying with my dogs, and he did. I've gotta say that I was really proud of my guys when I came back out from that yard and saw them sitting on the sidewalk a few houses away.

I expect my dogs to eat what I give them, they do. I expect them to accept any dog that I bring through the door...they do that too. So, yeah, I'm gonna say expectations are HUGE.

Benedict

Posted : 9/4/2006 7:04:32 PM

ORIGINAL: Aina

If I am rambling or you can't understand me, it is probably because I am really tired for some strange reason, sorry.

Perfectly understood. I get exactly what you meant.

I think my point is that although at some point our dogs may "fail" our expectations - although I am not even sure that "fail" is an especially fair or appropriate word - having those high expectations is miles better than having none at all.

For example, in Glenda's description of what happened today, I am sure that both Thor and Thunder could sense that they were expected to behave. There was no room for argument or negotiation - Glenda had to do something and needed the dogs to behave while she did it. End of story. As well trained as I am sure ALL of Glenda's GSDs are, I suspect that if they had felt as though she didn't care what they did while she was gone, their behaviour would not have been as exemplary as it was. (Glenda, feel free to change any of that, I take all responsibility for assuming anything.)

Obviously, training and obedience comes into this. In order to be able to expect a dog to perform any basic behaviour, there has to be even the slightest assurance that they are capable of it - which means teaching it. Frankly, basic behaviours are easy. Teaching a dog to sit is a heck of a lot easier than balancing a checkbook or making lasagna. But without the expectation that after the dog has been taught to do something, they will do it when you ask, why should the dog bother? They can TELL we don't care, so why should they? A halfhearted I'm-hoping-you-do-this-but-what-can-I-do-if-you-don't tone of voice or mode of body language has no place in training a dog, IMHO, because I am CONVINCED they can tell when we are able to be pushed.

I always walk Ben off-leash in secure areas, and always have a back-up plan for what to do if he runs away and doesn't come when called. I've never once had to use that backup. I am often stopped by people in those off-leash places who remark on the fact that I have a puppy off-leash at such a young age, and they are ALWAYS surprised that he has never failed to recall, and that I can call him off something really good. I went into owning Ben with one great desire above all others - a dog I could walk and hike with, without having to hold his leash all the time, provided we were somewhere it was safe to do so. That is, so far, what I have. Since at 5 months I can call him off a bird or another dog, and have been able to for a long time, I expect that I will continue to have a dog that behaves that way. It won't stop me planning for what happens if he does, but when I call him, he KNOWS I expect him to come back to me. And he does. He's not perfect...there are some behaviours we really have to work on every day and some things he's better at than others. Most of that is likely my fault - I am probably better at teaching some things than others, and Ben can only be a reflection of my own abilities to train him.

Kate

ron2

Posted : 9/5/2006 6:07:17 AM

Humans put off different aromas for different states of mind, such as fear, illness, happiness, a desired intention. Humans also have different body postures to go with those states of mind. Dogs read body cues and they can certainly smell how you feel.

One person called this having the right energy. That may sound like a general term but it does eventually equate to energy. A state of mind causes the body to walk and smell a certain way, which does involve the exchange of energy, within the body and exchanged to the atmosphere. So, step one in getting the dog to behave the way you want them to is to expect so fully that they will behave that there is no doubt in your mind, which eliminates hesitation, which changes how you stand and smell. You have set the guidelines and the dog knows where to fit in.

corvus

Posted : 9/5/2006 7:05:54 AM

I totally agree that dogs respond how you secretly expect them to. I rather think humans often do, as well. In my experience, most social animals know when you mean business and when you're not going to give them an inch. My corgi behaves like a perfect angel for anyone that expects her to do exactly what they ask her to and right away, but won't take anyone else seriously. She just ignores them if they're not convinced she'll do what she's told. I've experienced similar things with dogs that don't belong to me. I often feel a bit strange giving them commands at first, because they're not my dog and I don't know them like I know her. They see my hesitancy and cheerfully ignore me until I get a bit more serious.

On the topic of expectations, it often baffles me why people choose a breed that's been bred for hunting or nipping ankles or routing out small animals or guarding flocks and then proceed to try to quash their breeding history out of them. What's the point in getting a specialised breed if you're going to try to turn it into a lab? You have to play to your dog's strengths and appreciate their natural tendencies, or how will you ever really appreciate them?

glenmar

Posted : 9/5/2006 7:33:57 AM

Kate, thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't consider my dogs all that well trained. The five boys have the basics enough to have earned their CGC, but they aren't shining examples of well trained dogs. They STILL bark way too much around the house, especially in the yard, and are NOT quick to settle and be quiet...especially when the chipmunk is taunting them. And when DH lets them in after their evening romp, they STILL come in like a freight train......and there are some situtations where the WAIT command might as well be me talking to myself.....so we still have a heck of a lot of work to do in some areas.

I think that the key is that I do have expectations of them, I TELL them what I expect, and there are some areas that I'm kinda lax about. But, genuinely, they DO want to please me, and I think my style of training....non confrontational, non aggressive and mostly +R (although I sometimes forget to catch them doing something right) is critical. They don't like getting my sad tone when I say "I'm dissapointed in you".....how much of it they understand, I'm not sure, but I know my kids WORST punishment was my dissappointment.......

dogslife

Posted : 9/5/2006 7:40:19 AM

This topic is bringing up some excellent thoughts and needs for any dog owners. It is true that many people are trying and trying in the very worst ways of training their dogs ...or not trying at all to train/ giving up due to our own inadequate understandings ! It gets tiring, to both dog and owners...and folks do give up on the learning/teaching process. Unfortunately, quality of life may be also lost here.

What books or authors do you reccommend to help people ?
[color=#000000]I think I prefer the behaviorhist approach. [/color]

I like what ron2 said, about not being so much of a "whisperer" , but... "aims to be more of a listener".

What seems like the more difficult mode of training - (both the owner + dogs), may not ultimately be the most difficult mode regarding your success with it.
Minding your dogs breeding, temperament, personal history...all are factors which an owner needs to regard.

Brookcove said,
"My trainer can get into a dog's head so quickly that it seems supernatural - but it's because the dogs trust him after the first ten seconds to two minutes (depending on how screwed up the dog is previously! []). After he's gained the dog's trust, he can do things like work a deaf dog with no apparent body language and once I changed the name of a dog I handed over to him and the dog was responding happily to that name after the first time he used it! And still does, in fact (his previous name made him drop in mid stride and roll over and pee []). "

Benedict

Posted : 9/5/2006 9:37:26 AM

On the topic of expectations, it often baffles me why people choose a breed that's been bred for hunting or nipping ankles or routing out small animals or guarding flocks and then proceed to try to quash their breeding history out of them. What's the point in getting a specialised breed if you're going to try to turn it into a lab? You have to play to your dog's strengths and appreciate their natural tendencies, or how will you ever really appreciate them?

Corvus - while I agree with your point here, I'd like to respectfully disgree with the remark about "turning a dog into a lab"...Labs have a job too - they are bred to retrieve. That doesn't just equate itself to being used as gun dogs or FT dogs - Ben retrieves everything he can get his paws on around the house, even things I don't want him to have. To some, that trait could be unbearable, which would mean that for them, a lab would not be the ideal family pet. Labs ARE a specialised breed, it's just that most of the time they're not put to work in the way they should be.

Glenda - my apologies for my assumptions. Still, I agree that expectation is the key, and even if they are not perfectly behaved, if you expected nothing I'm guessing it would be worse? I also agree on the disappointment issue - being disappointed gives off an entirely new scent and set of body behaviours in people, even if we aren't aware of it. Dogs can sense that, as they can everything else. Ron explained that admirably.

I just think there's such a huge difference between knowing how to do something and doing it for a reason. I know how to dress nicely for a meeting - but if I wasn't expected to turn up in a suit, why would I bother, when jeans are more comfortable? Ben's reason for cooperating with me (apart from treats sometimes) is that he can sense my need for him to do it AND my faith in his ability to do it.

Imagine being in a foreign country and trying to ask for a glass of water from someone with whom you have no common verbal language. We'd all, I'm sure, try asking in English anyway, because that's our "default" (or whatever your mother tongue is), but our expectation that we'd get what we want would be incredibly low. However, if we kept going back every day and used our body language, mime and any other tools we had to teach the word "water", eventually we could expect that the next time we asked, we'd get that glass. If we kept going back even after that, we'd probably start getting the water without even having to ask. That's essentially what we do with our dogs - start my instituting basic knowledge, then increase our expectations in relation to the level of that knowledge.

Kate

glenmar

Posted : 9/5/2006 9:42:42 AM

Kate, no need to apologize. I would LOVE to have my dogs as well trained as Annes.....