C.M. Debate

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I think that both sides feel that if the other side "understood" and tried the other method, they would be astounded by how effective it can be.  ...

 
As someone from the outside who is just trying to have harmony in the home, I evolved from harsh methods to more of the gentle form, on my own.  Boy, did I make mistakes.  I see value in both sides and want to take as much information I can out of those that offer.  But what happens is problems are created if you are not exclusive.  Both sides are locked and rigid and not open to probing and questioning.  It leaves little choices and is frustrating to the common Joe.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I think that both sides feel that if the other side "understood" and tried the other method, they would be astounded by how effective it can be.  However, many of our +R trainers have "come out of the dark" so to speak and at one time DID use the harsher methods.....and like born again Christians, are a bit zealot ish.  And that's not a rub to anyone.  Once you find an easier method that is equally or more effective, it's hard to listen to folks constantly bash your thinking.

Something no doubt felt and done by both sides.

I've never really been a physical trainer.  And, nope, I'm not a trainer.  I've mostly always used the kinder, gentler methods with my dogs, as I did with my children.  Not to say I haven't used aversives, such as a prong collar, but I've done that humanely.

While I'm all for using sensible methods to train, be they kind gentler, methods or using a prong, as a trainer I know no one method works for all dogs. Can anyone say that's not a fact?

So for ME some of this stuff is way over the top....flooding dogs, hanging them, running them on a treadmill....that stuff is completely alien to me because I know that there are kinder (and in my mind) better ways to achieve the same result, or a BETTER result.

I see nothing unkind about having a dog that cooked up for days because of perhaps bad weather geeting a little run on a treadmill. Perhaps you can point out the harm in it to me. And flooding seems more to me like, real life, something all species on this planet must deal with. That being said, as a trainer who works with aggressive dogs, I've NEVER seen any good reason to "hang" a dog. I was told once in my early years I'd have to choke out this one particular dog to get his reward toy from, and that it was the only you could take it from him without getting attacked. I've proved that was VERY wrong. at the same time I see nothing wrong when a dog tries or does bite me, with calmly placing a dog on it's side and holding him/her there until they relax. I've never in 20 something years seen this turn out badly in any shape or form.

I just stay out of the CM debates, other than to express my displeasure.

I'm sorry to hear that, and find it odd sense you've used "prong collars".

I've no problem with a dog running on a tread mill as an alternative form of exercise.  I do think that it's inappropriate as a training method tho.
 
Every dog I've ever had has pretty much been trained the same way...cockers, shepherds, mutts, you name it, and the fosters that come into my home as well are treated in the same way MY crew are treated.  I guess I've gotten lucky and the same thing HAS worked for all mine.
 
Because I have used a prong I should post in bloodly battles?  I don't think so.  My opinion is mine and I don't have to continue to post it to prove a point or something.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I've no problem with a dog running on a tread mill as an alternative form of exercise.  I do think that it's inappropriate as a training method tho.

Ok, and that's what CM does, he uses it as a form of exercise.

Every dog I've ever had has pretty much been trained the same way...cockers, shepherds, mutts, you name it, and the fosters that come into my home as well are treated in the same way MY crew are treated.  I guess I've gotten lucky and the same thing HAS worked for all mine.

Very lucky.

Because I have used a prong I should post in bloodly battles?  I don't think so.  My opinion is mine and I don't have to continue to post it to prove a point or something.

Um, no, I just don't understand why someone who uses a prong collar (which is highly criticized by many R+ trainers) would take issue with CM's methods. It's quite bewildering.

Although I don't agree with some of C.Millan's techniques and somewhat one-sided approach to dog training/rehab/etc... One of the biggest reasons I respect him is because his philosophy lies on the belief that it's possible to have a balanced, fulfilling connection with your dog without any knowledge/use of Pavlov's studies, leashes or clickers... just as humans did centuries ago. Maybe it's just what I want to believe in - it makes me feel good inside.

Well, the prong was actually suggested HERE as a more humane choice than a choker.  I researched the prong, I trotted around a store with one on ME and a trainer behind me, I was shown how to properly "install" one and how to properly USE the danged thing.  I further didn't use leash corrections and pops.  When Thor got to the end of the lead I allowed and got the tightening on his neck, HE corrected himself to get rid of the unpleasant tightness.  I TALK to my dogs when they are on lead, pretty much nonstop as well, so the 'eh eh, no pulling' coupled with the tightness worked amazingly quickly.
 
As to the why I needed a tool like that in the first place?  I've had FIVE upper body surgeries, mostly on one shoulder.  My upper body strength is non-existant compared to what it used to be.  Thor, at 93 pounds, could literally pull me over, and when I tried putting the lead through my belt to put more strength behind it, he dragged me down the road on my arse.  A series of life changing events led to him not getting his daily practice on lead and by the time I finished my degree and moved to where my family had moved, he was out of control on a lead.  I worked and worked hard with him using all the +R suggestions I was given.  Unfortunately, I don't have the upper body strength to "be a tree" when I'm being DRAGGED.  And the one shoulder is completely shot....the next surgery will have to be a replacement.  So, it was try something aversive, but used humanely, or stop walking him altogether.
 
That was then.  NOW I wouldn't need to go to a prong.  NOW I get young ones out on drag lines EARLY and I've got six german shepherds with perfect recall AND perfect leash manners.  I believe that working them on drag lines gets them well accustomed to paying closer attention to me so that when they ARE on lead, in town say, they are perfectly willing to do what I ask.  That's just my theory, but it seems to have worked for me.
 
Regarding the treadmill, it seems to me that several hours of running on a treadmill is a bit excessive.  To me that crosses the line.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Well, the prong was actually suggested HERE as a more humane choice than a choker. 

I couldn't agree more. However, a lot of  R+ *only* not R+ trainers (and there's a big difference) would still chastice you for using it. Some of them will infact chastise anyone for using anything other than a harness. They will look upon you the same as you seem to look upon CM.

Regarding the treadmill, it seems to me that several hours of running on a treadmill is a bit excessive.  To me that crosses the line.

I walk 4 to 8 miles 6 days a week with my dogs, they don't seam to mind at all. Takes me 1 to 2 hours to do so, what's the problem? Are you aware of how far dogs in the wild walk on a daily bases, especially to hunt? And then, once they find prey how much they have to run and chase them down. Add to that, they are successful approx 1 out of every 11 attempts. That's a lot of walking and running *on a daily basis*. And could direct me to the info where he "ran" a dog for several "hours" on a tread mill.

This is me NOT getting drawn into this thread.  But, two +R trainers who I have great respect for told me that the prong was the least damaging of the evils, used correctly.  So I'm not sure where you get the idea that +R trainers are adverse to ANY other methods....the idea is to start with the most dog friendly manner and take baby steps up in aversives if you absolutely must.  Most times if you do it right, you don't need to.
 
And now, I'm truly done with this thread.  This is why I don't participate.  I don't need to be challenged on every word I say.  Bye.

glenmar

Did you miss this part of what I said? "However, a lot of  R+ *only* not R+ trainers (and there's a big difference)". The word *ONLY*. Not trying to challenge you, just trying to understand why someone who does IMO right by their dogs, while others would condem them for their use of  the (what they would call a midevil) equipment they choose, would turn around and do the same towards CM.

R+
and
R+ *only* trainers
Are not the same, hope I cleared that up.

Glenda,
 Don't take your toys yet....This discussion is just getting good!
 
I see that our new member knows the different levels of training in his/her postings and seems to identify with those as both you and I do, different dogs different levels.
 
I'm not any "type" of trainer and gladly so...I surely don't need another title or hat to wear [] 
I have used a prong collar as suggested by the "trainer" I went to when interested in competition OB. Luckily I know my dogs and what they are capible of and the extent to which I will work on lesser methods. The dog I was working with did NOT need a prong collar to achive the desired results although it might have been the "quicker" resulting method. I have used this collar on the rescue "Hanibal" as he is much more of a dog then I can handle alone and he started with a nylon choke, graduated to a chain choke and then to the prong. He needed a more aggressive form of control due to the lack of social interaction deemed upon him by his previous owners. After more then a year of working with him he is now to the point where he will generally walk on a loose lead on property and we are about to start off property work with him. He is back to a nylon choke now but I'm sure we will have to again work backwards prong down when he goes off property.

Oh yeah...I almost forgot... I wish I had a treadmill!!!
 
Working a dog on a tread mill generally isn't for hours a day. Most people who use them set a "distance" instead of a time limit and of course just like the human ones they can change speeds from walk to an easy run.
 
Markie does a mile + when he is conditioning every other day and LOVES it. He knows when it's time to go and drags Dustin to the van. We use our back roads by van and when the daylight got short we then turned to our local school parking lot which is lighted by bike.
 It's funny since we took a break from showing until Westminster we also gave Markie a short break too...now from the lack of running he has gotten destructive..I guess he really didn't need a break.

ORIGINAL: amstaffy

Glenda,
Don't take your toys yet....This discussion is just getting good!

I see that our new member knows the different levels of training in his/her postings and seems to identify with those as both you and I do, different dogs different levels.

Thank you. I think it's my stance on CM that perhaps throws people off. While these days my work consist of behavior modification, I've done a lot of obt over the years and tones of scent and bite work. I to like to use different methods. The only one I don't use is clicker training, no point to it IMO only. But to those who enjoy it, I say, click away. And I (because of working with aggressive dogs) do not believe in R+ *only*, and I stress the word only. But R+ training is great. I also never see a need to hurt a dog to teach them.

As I recall, the lawsuit against CM by the producer was due in part to the dog almost dying after being run on a treadmill for HOURS.
 
And yeah, Jaime, if you come across the treadmill fairy, send one my way would ya?  I love treadmills for MY exercise.  Especially in the summer when the darned snakes are out and about.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

As I recall, the lawsuit against CM by the producer was due in part to the dog almost dying after being run on a treadmill for HOURS.

And yeah, Jaime, if you come across the treadmill fairy, send one my way would ya?  I love treadmills for MY exercise.  Especially in the summer when the darned snakes are out and about.

I would suggest you reseach what actually happened in that case.

[linkhttp://www.clickertraining.com/node/988]"The Myth of Purely Positive"[/link]

I don't know of a single trainer who is "purely positive". It's at best a simple misnomer or misundrstanding, at worst it's a straw man purposefully set up to confuse the argument.