Out-of-control Kid

I agree with whoever said that it's the animal owner's responsibility to train the animal to accept the crazy behavior of humans without resorting to defensive biting/kicking. But what to do while in the process of training???? it's a puzzle.

 
It's spelled muzzle not "puzzle".[]

Um, ok.  So what should I use on my peaceful animals walking down the street completely and totally under my control when a child comes running out of a park without a sound, careens across a street and LAUNCHES herself at my dog?  Why did we, or the dogs deserve the tongue lashing we took from the child's MOTHER who did not have her under any sort of control or was too busy doing her own thing to watch her child.
 
This was a THREE year old, so not a real speedster, and mom didn't notice that her child got off whatever piece of equipment she was on, left the park and came through the parking lot and across the street????  She never CALLED the child, never said a word until she started screaming at US and our perfectly peaceful and SITTING dogs.
 
How is it that Me and My Dog were in anyones business???

It's spelled muzzle not "puzzle".

 
Yeah, that was cute. Mudpuppy meant puzzle, as in, it's a puzzle trying to figure out how to socialize a dog to accept varying social circumstances while having to watch out for crazy kids.
 
Astarcheetah did nothing wrong. You say she was wrong for trying to lead her dog away from this child and that, somehow, her dog would define this as something to be afraid and trigger a fear-aggression response at any old time. When someone or some dog comes at me and my dog, my first impulse is to rip to shreds the attacker. No retreat, no surrender. Shall my dog follow my lead, then? But now, I bring my dog around and try to redirect and go in another direction, which doesn't always help.
 
Let me tell you something about dogs. You can push even the sweetest dog too far. After all, dogs do have survival instincts, such as you mentioned. Let me tell you another thing about dogs. A well trained dog, such as Astarcheetah's, will follow her human's lead, which is to avoid conflict, not to fear a small child. Let me tell you another thing about dogs. They are territorial and guarding.
 
Let me tell you something about humans. They need discipline and training, too. And a child with no limits doesn't know where to stop. A parent needs to give them limits, in order to at least not be a blight on society. The same kid that will run up to a doggy poking and screaming will also run into traffic with no time for a car to stop. See, when I was a kid, parents were in control, not children.
 
And Glenda did everything by the book with asbolutely exemplary behavior from her dogs in her situation. I would have been tempted to call social services since that mother is not providing properly for the care and safety of her child. When I was kid, I sometimes saw parents who, not wanting to spank, would opt for having their child in a harness and leash. I don't know how well that trained the kid but at least it kept them from running in front of a bus.
 

Thanks Erin.

The point is not who is right and who is wrong. The parent in this case is wrong.

The point is that it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. Who wants to live their life depending on what other people "should" or "should not" do? It's a recipe for discontent.

And the other point is that the dog _really_ doesn't care about who is right or who is wrong--the dog just needs effective leadership. In order to be an effective leader to the dog, the owner of the dog needs to understand that dogs provoke all kinds of inappropriate behavior in people and handle it gracefully instead of depending on other people's correctness. Not just for the sake of the owner's contentment with the world, but for the sake of the freaking dog.

(And yes, the exact same argument applies to the child in question, but the mom of the child did not happen to write this thread)

Yeah, that was cute. Mudpuppy meant puzzle, as in, it's a puzzle trying to figure out how to socialize a dog to accept varying social circumstances while having to watch out for crazy kids.

 
Yeah, I got it...My point is...it really in't that hard to keep your dog from biting someone. 
 

A well trained dog, such as Astarcheetah's, will follow her human's lead, which is to avoid conflict, not to fear a small child.

 
I actually question the training to some degree in this situation. A well trained dog could have been asked to hold a down stay while her owner dealt with the problem.
 

You can push even the sweetest dog too far

 
Sure, but that doesn't always lead to aggression. 
 

They are territorial and guarding

 
Actually most well adjusted dogs ar not particurally territorial and share there space quite readily. 
 
I agree that Glenda handled the situaiton perfectly. 
 
 

ORIGINAL: ron2

It's spelled muzzle not "puzzle".

Let me tell you something about humans. They need discipline and training, too. And a child with no limits doesn't know where to stop. A parent needs to give them limits, in order to at least not be a blight on society. The same kid that will run up to a doggy poking and screaming will also run into traffic with no time for a car to stop. See, when I was a kid, parents were in control, not children.

And Glenda did everything by the book with asbolutely exemplary behavior from her dogs in her situation. I would have been tempted to call social services since that mother is not providing properly for the care and safety of her child. When I was kid, I sometimes saw parents who, not wanting to spank, would opt for having their child in a harness and leash. I don't know how well that trained the kid but at least it kept them from running in front of a bus.

Amen on the first paragraph. I am actually considered one of the more stricter parents since I do not let my children get away with much of anything. I am a full believer in I am the parent and you are the child. We can be "friends" once you are in college. It isn't that I do not love my kids. I love them very much. But they need discipline to learn and function in this world as adults.

 Also, I did use a harness on my kids. It kept them with me at all times when they were toddlers. That is pretty much the purpose of the harness. It is to keep the child close to the parent.

--Sara

I actually question the training to some degree in this situation. A well trained dog could have been asked to hold a down stay while her owner dealt with the problem

I do have a question on that comment. Is there a way to train a dog to stay in a down while the Spawn of Satan pummels it, pokes, grabs, screams, jumps on it? The people beihnd us had a GSD/Golden mix. The sweetest dog ever. I once saw the little girl take a bat and swing and I could hear it hit the dog. Not hard but enough to startle the dog. She (the dog, Maggie) did not retaliate but she kept her distance from the girl for a while. This took place right outside the open window where her (for lack of a better word) "parents" were fussing with some piece of furniture. So, the dog exercised one of two options. Flight, as in moving away from the girl. Her brother, the Spawn of Satan, would throw stuff at my dog and the neighbor's dogs and the parents, particularly the father, still do nothing. They finally got him to quit when I said the next time he throws something at my dog, I will call the police.

So, is there a way to train that dog, or any dog to just lay there and take it? I realize I may be audacious and maybe outrageous in expecting parents to control their children.
 
edited to add:
BTW, Maggie, never a jumper or one to run off, was somehow able to get out of a chained and padlocked yard. My wife thought she saw her around the neighborhood for a day or two and I think I saw her crossing the service road on my way to work one morning. How cold do you have to be to not let your dog back in? Since then, their cat had kittens, which now jump over the fence and play with Shadow. And they now have a Dachshund. At least, I think they still have one.

(hanging my head in shame)
 
I DO have to admit that while I didn't yell at the woman or even raise my raise, I was rather snarky when I informed her that MY dogs were totally under my control, unlike HER child......................
 
And, yep, I did use a harness on my youngest son....it had a remarkably calming effect on my ADHD child.

My mom had harnesses for my two youngest sisters (they were 16 mo. apart) and they worked great.  The kiddos felt like they had a little bit of freedom and their little arms weren't getting pulled out of their sockets. [] People used to stop her and really chew her out for *treating the kids like dogs*.

Joyce

So, is there a way to train that dog, or any dog to just lay there and take it? I realize I may be audacious and maybe outrageous in expecting parents to control their children.

Ron, if you find out how to train the very survival instinct out of a dog, please let me know as well.

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_dogs_mom

My mom had harnesses for my two youngest sisters (they were 16 mo. apart) and they worked great.  The kiddos felt like they had a little bit of freedom and their little arms weren't getting pulled out of their sockets. [] People used to stop her and really chew her out for *treating the kids like dogs*.

Joyce

My eldest sons are not even 13 months apart. My eldest was born July 17, '98 and my second was born August 12, '99. I used to think that harnessing kids was a crazy thing too. But then I had kids and quickly changed my mind when my eldest ran off in a store. He was 3 at the time and I was 8 months pregnant. The harness has kept my kids safe and has relieved me from anymore heart attacks.

--Sara

ORIGINAL: ron2

I actually question the training to some degree in this situation. A well trained dog could have been asked to hold a down stay while her owner dealt with the problem

I do have a question on that comment. Is there a way to train a dog to stay in a down while the Spawn of Satan pummels it, pokes, grabs, screams, jumps on it?

I was going to reply to that one, but I won't because I think you covered it pretty well with this sentence. Thanks.

BTW, let me remind everyone "questioning my training" that Shippo is still a puppy. Of course he's not going to be perfectly trained. That kind of thing is not instant. It takes months of work. I don't think you guys read my update at all, just went for the throat. >9.9<

ORIGINAL: k9therapist

Yeah, I got it...My point is...it really in't that hard to keep your dog from biting someone. 

It might not be hard, but every dog has their breaking point and it's not really practical to expect every dog owner to muzzle their dog to guard against that one in a thousand moment when their dog cracks and snaps. I think dogs should be allowed to show how upset or frightened they are by snapping. In most dogs, it rarely happens, and there's nothing quite like a near miss to teach everyone a memorable lesson. I just wouldn't expect to encounter a monster that is going to push my dog over the edge, and during the socialisation period, I wouldn't want to muzzle my dog just in case that monster turns up. Chances are they won't. If they do, chances are I'll be able to stop them before my dog snaps. If I can't, then I will deal with the consequences for my folly and I guess I'll be shouting at whoever owns the monster who's completely out of control and may even have a lot of work to do with my dog afterwards. But really, I think I'd prefer that to muzzling every time we go out.

Momma says "you've got some nerve walking such big dogs in town....my child could have been hit by a car running to see them." and then she smacked the child.

HOLY CRAP!
 
And, come on, we should muzzle our dogs in public for the possible idiots and their spawn who infringe upon our space?!?!  With that theory, I should also keep myself locked in the house because, as a woman, I should just anticipate that there's a likelihood a rapist may attack me and it was my responsibility to keep myself out of his way...!?!? 

Of course he's not going to be perfectly trained. That kind of thing is not instant. It takes months of work.

 
And I'm not perfect and neither is my dog. I guess we're made for each other.