The "Wolf Dog" Issue

I agree with those who have said they don't think wolves or wolf hybrids are appropriate pets. Keeping wild animals in captivity is just selfish, especially when there is no shortage of dogs (plenty of them nice and wolfy looking if it's looks you're after) who make appropriate and sensible pets. Wolves should be left to live in their natural habitat, which is not a human family's house or backyard.
 
I don't know if Siana is still around but if so I'd like to direct you to this article about the alpha roll - [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll[/link]
"
It is now known that by nature, a dog will only forcibly flip another animal onto his back during a serious fight where the intent may be to kill the opponent (this should not to be confused with the behaviour when a dog rolls over on his own to show submission). So in other words, when you perform the alpha roll your dog will believe that you are trying to kill him. Many dogs, not only dominant or aggressive ones, will instincively try to defend themselves, which can be very dangerous or even fatal to the trainer.
It can also [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma]traumatize[/link] the dog, causing serious [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychology#Disorders_of_animal_behaviour]psychological disorders[/link], and leading to further undesired behaviour such as fear-biting or submissive urination. For aggressive and dominant dogs, it may increase aggression rather than reduce it.
The alpha roll can also irreparably damage the relationship between the trainer and the dog.
The name alpha roll is itself a misnomer as top wolf experts, such as David Mech, no longer use the term when describing the behavior of wild wolves. Also, in wild wolf packs dominance displays are uncommon and usually only take place over distribution of food for the young. No wild wolf has ever been observed performing an alpha roll on another pack member."

ORIGINAL: jones

I agree with those who have said they don't think wolves or wolf hybrids are appropriate pets. Keeping wild animals in captivity is just selfish, especially when there is no shortage of dogs (plenty of them nice and wolfy looking if it's looks you're after) who make appropriate and sensible pets. Wolves should be left to live in their natural habitat, which is not a human family's house or backyard.

I don't know if Siana is still around but if so I'd like to direct you to this article about the alpha roll - [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll[/link]
"
It is now known that by nature, a dog will only forcibly flip another animal onto his back during a serious fight where the intent may be to kill the opponent (this should not to be confused with the behaviour when a dog rolls over on his own to show submission). So in other words, when you perform the alpha roll your dog will believe that you are trying to kill him. Many dogs, not only dominant or aggressive ones, will instincively try to defend themselves, which can be very dangerous or even fatal to the trainer.
It can also [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma]traumatize[/link] the dog, causing serious [linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychology#Disorders_of_animal_behaviour]psychological disorders[/link], and leading to further undesired behaviour such as fear-biting or submissive urination. For aggressive and dominant dogs, it may increase aggression rather than reduce it.
The alpha roll can also irreparably damage the relationship between the trainer and the dog.
The name alpha roll is itself a misnomer as top wolf experts, such as David Mech, no longer use the term when describing the behavior of wild wolves. Also, in wild wolf packs dominance displays are uncommon and usually only take place over distribution of food for the young. No wild wolf has ever been observed performing an alpha roll on another pack member."

 
That's excellent info and I'm going to save it for use on other forums when/if "alpha rolls" come up....

Building trust in your dogs is ,to me,THE most important thing you can do for yourself and your dog.

 This is why positive methods of training should be used .

 Using an alpha roll,yelling,or hitting will only create mistrust in your dog.You may be able to train your dog this way,but dont be surprized if somewhere down the road  the pent up frustration and  agression is released on you from your pup.

 There are people who are not familiar with positive training methods,and should check out a book or two on the subject..

  With WD's,trust is very important.

 As for WD ownership,i should explain myself a bit further.

  When i say only a certain percentage of people should BUY a WD,I mean these people should have a good piece of property ,fully contained and do all that is expected to make these guys healthy and happy.The higher content wd's would be a big financial obligation for a good owner .

  What i am not a fan of,is someone buying 3 or more of these and keeping them on a paltry piece of property,or on chains.

  As for rescues,I could never condemn a dog to death just because he has some wolf blood in him.those who rescue these dogs and care for them in the proper way have my utmost respect.

 As for Siana,if people come on here saying things you really dont like,wouldnt it be better to educate them about better means and methods of training than to tar and feather them right off the bat?Are we not here to help both dog and owner if we can?I know it can be hard to hear of someone doing something to train their dog that might be hideous to you,but i myself believe it is better to gain the persons trust through kindness,and then try to bend them to my way of thinking through education and example.

  Just my thoughts.




 

ORIGINAL: MhadDog

As for Siana,if people come on here saying things you really dont like,wouldnt it be better to educate them about better means and methods of training than to tar and feather them right off the bat?Are we not here to help both dog and owner if we can?I know it can be hard to hear of someone doing something to train their dog that might be hideous to you,but i myself believe it is better to gain the persons trust through kindness,and then try to bend them to my way of thinking through education and example.

We did, we honestly did try to help her learn something. If you reread what Glenda and myself and Jaime and others said to her, we did cut her all kinds of slack. This is a subject that has been discussed over and over here, and I think the point is well taken.

I love this breed; just love it.

THIS IS NOT A BREED.  This is a deliberate hybridization of a wild animal with a domesticated animal. 

From what I've read of your experiences, you are very very lucky to not have been seriously injured.  Maybe you're lucky.  But I would not advocate any of the training methods you've employed. 

There are times I really wanted to have a hybrid.  I think I would be one of the few people that I know who would honestly try and fulfill this type of animal's needs.  I also realized that these canids are not meant to be pets.  Thousands of years of breeding suggests that maybe they're better off in the wild, doing what predators do: culling the weak, the weary and the sick/lame.  They don't deserve to be puppeted by humans.  In short I have too much respect for the species.

ORIGINAL: ron2

In essence, she had all the traits and behaviors to survive in the wild, which runs counter (mostly) to living with humans.

[]

  I have looked at her posts to see what was up before I responded..

 I also saw that she joined on the 6th of this month...

 It just didnt seem to me she was given very much time to change or adjust to some new ideas before bieng lambasted for her beliefs..

 Mind you,I dont agree with her methods,and when I hear things like were in these posts,I would rather try to sway the person over to my side for the dog and owner...

  I wont go any further with this since you must all know where I stand.I am new here also,but am not affraid to speak what i believe,or listen to another POV and give it some thought.

  I know that the regulars on this board are very caring people .Sometimes I think we need to practice more patience in this hurry up and get it done world,even when we are appaled by certain behavior we may not understand.

I find it interesting that you, as a WD owner, don't employ any of the methods that she was touting.  Good gosh, the methods kept getting more and more fanatical....harsher and harsher.  I'm afraid that the thought of laughing at a mousetrap on a little 10 week old pups TONGUE was all I could handle.
 
I have german shepherds who can open babygates, but why would they when all they have to do is jump them?  They could jump them or climb them by 10 weeks of age.  They can also open those darned child latches that someone had put on the cupboards in another house we lived in.  But they don't, because they were taught not too. Without mousetraps or shock collars. Attributing all those things to the wolf in her dog was maybe just a bit of wishful thinking,   Maybe no one ever told her just how darned SMART german shepherds are, I don't know.  But, if momma was a gsd, well, that's where a lot of this behavior was coming from.  Normal GSD puppy behavior, not wolf behavior.
 
You have taken in a WD and done right by it, and I applaud you for that.  Did you go out specifically searching for a WD?  I don't know that, but I suspect that this was not some fulfillment of a childhood dream to tame a wild animal.  You, from what you have said, do not live smack dab in the middle of a city either.  And you are NOT looking to breed your WD.
 
I've read some of this persons posts on other forums and there are a lot of inconsistencies between what was posted HERE and whats been posted elsewhere. The only thing that remains constant is the abusive method of training.  And, honestly, I've shared some of those training methods with DH and DS who BOTH said that this gal needs to be reported to AC.
 
Sometimes folks refuse to listen to whats right or whats better and are just determined to do it their own way.  Regardless of what damage they might be doing to their animals.  I have trouble being nice to folks who repeatedly come up with harsher and harsher treatment of their animals AND spread those methods across an internet board as the RIGHT way to train.  I'm not so worried about the folks HERE that post and discuss, but heaven forbid that a lurker try that at home.....

Sometimes folks refuse to listen to whats right or whats better and are just determined to do it their own way. Regardless of what damage they might be doing to their animals. I have trouble being nice to folks who repeatedly come up with harsher and harsher treatment of their animals AND spread those methods across an internet board as the RIGHT way to train. I'm not so worried about the folks HERE that post and discuss, but heaven forbid that a lurker try that at home.....

 
I guess my biggest problem is that this person laughs about the harsher training methods.  I don't think any part of hurting an animal is funny. 

Agreed.  But, then I'm one of those folks who cringed at the idea of rubbing a pups nose in a mess and than whopping them with a rolled up newspaper.  It never made any sense to me to do that, plus it meant I couldn't have puppy kisses unless I wanted pee/poop along with them......
 
But then, I've been accused of basically stealing Annes thots and parroting them here, so some at least think I don't have a mind of my own I guess.......

From what I can understand about some states and their laws regarding wolf dog ownership, it is based on the Mendelian Model, rather than modern knowledge of mtDNA. Monk Gregor Mendel came up with a basic mathematical model. A wolf and a dog mating would produce one that is half of each. Well, that model is centuries old and is inaccurate when compared to the findings of the canid genome project. But the law seems to approach from the Mendelian model. So, a dog and wolf produce a 50/50 wolfdog. In some states, a wolf dog that is 50 percent or more wolf is a wild animal and requires a wild animal permit. A wolf and a wolfdog mating would produce a 3/4 wolf, or 75 percent wolf. In Texas, wolfdogs are not regulated. In Wyoming, it is illegal to to sell or breed wolves, wolfdogs, or wolf hybrids. According to the science of mtDNA and nDNA, a wolf female and a dog male would produce a wolf with wolf/dog appearance. A dog femal and a wolf male would produce a dog with dog/wolf appearance. It is the mtDNA that defines the nature of the canid and the nDNA contributes the aesthetics and some minor structure.

For example, due to my research so far, Shadow's daddy was a Lab with brown/amber eyes and a black coat. The iridescent shade of his eyes, however, come from momma, a brown, red, and white Siberian Husky. His tailset is low, like a Lab, but the bushiness and carrying it in a hook or curled over his back is from momma. The small pointed ears, which he can hold up individually or together are from momma and the independent suspension of each is from some structure in the nDNA. The blowing of coat, markedly different than a Lab, comes from momma.

If the law were to update and reflect mtDNA, it would be illegal to own a wolf dog where momma was a wolf, in some states.
 
I provide this pic as an example of what I'm talking about. The lighter fur you see is not a result of shine or reflection, those are the actual colors.
 

THIS IS NOT A BREED. This is a deliberate hybridization of a wild animal with a domesticated animal

 
I agree with you. From what I was given to understand, dog and wolf are two different species, though, Robert K. Wayne surmises that the dog descended from the gray wolf. I still harbor a wavering opinion that the wolf and dog came from a common ancestor, much as humans and chimps came from a common ancestor, rather than us coming from chimps, rather than dog directly from from wolf. Wayne is a genetic researcher, rather than an anthropologist and I suspect the actual truth lies somewhere between the two. His research has been limited to some breeds of dogs and some wolves, as opposed to including all archeological evidence.
 
If a female wolfdog had a mother who was wolf, then, if she were to breed, her temperment would change after the litter was born and it wouldn't fit with living in a house. She would become fearful and aggressive to humans. That is necessary because that's how a mother wolf and her cubs survive in the wild. If a female wolfdog had a dog for a mother, then she would be a dog and possibly not have the same temperment change, but then, she wouldn't be a wolf.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

I find it interesting that you, as a WD owner, don't employ any of the methods that she was touting. 

 I am not sure how you find this interesting..I have stated before that I believe in positive training.Owning a WD is totaly beside the point when it comes to training..

 I would no more hit a dog for doing something wrong than I would hold a childs hand on a hot surface to teach them a lesson about the dangers of HOT.

  As for your beliefs,I havnt read anything that you wrote that i disagree with.

 One of the biggest issues people have with WD ownership is that the dog in question doesnt know if he is wolf or dog,and is confused.Living between the wild side and domestication and not knowing how to behave..Good training and socialization at a young age is the key...Like any other dog(or kid for that matter),the more you put into them,especially at an early age,the better bieng you will have raised.

  Siana has used methods which may work short term,but probably didnt do anything to garner any trust from her pup.

  Another misconception about WD's are that they will reach maturity and "turn on you"

  If you raise any dog,or person with negative methods,than the likelyhood of them turning on you as they reach maturity increases dramatically depending on the level of punishment the dog or person is forced to endure.

  At some point,if a dog is humiliated or "corrected"inhumanely,he is going to let you know,and when it happens,it will probably seem to the owner that the dog just "turned on them"

 Glenda,all my thoughts are not origainal ,but i stick by them because to me,they seem like common sence .I dont care where your thoughts originated from as long as you believe and practice what you say,which I have no doubt you do.You seem like the type of person I could really get along with in real life.

 the thing that bothers me most about talk of WD's is making thenm illegal everywhere.I wish I could take the people who speak this way and bring them to places i have been,and see how these dogs can be when provided with  good homes.I feel like every blanket attack on wd's are an attack on my pup,and the thought of seeing him put down for no other reason than his bloodline is heart breaking.As for breeding,refer to my other posts concerning this.

  Anyway,i hope you dont take what i say as an attack toward you or anyone.I really do enjoy reading what you all say,and have taken some things away from this board that i hadnt thought of.

 

ORIGINAL: Siana

for all those wonderful lovely reasons, you must be a true lover of this breed or forget it. 

 
A hybrid is not a breed.  At the very best, it could be considered a mutt.

Probably a poor choice of words.  What I should have said was that I'm glad to know that OTHERS with WD's dont' feel the need to use such methods...that you ARE able to raise a trustworthy animal without aversive methods.  Does that make more sense?
 
And, ya gotta remember I'm getting older and have a bit harder time remembering who said what and who trains how.......[]