Horse people-----i need help

Let me start by saying THANK YOU!!!!
 
* He is not startled when he tries to kick. he knows I'm coming, because I start talking to him as soon as I am getting near.  It's quiet and calm. He will take a few steps to me. I pet his nose, then he turns. I back away slowly.
 
*He does not seem agressive, or mean. He just has an attitude that he'll let you come when he wants you to come.
 
* DH put him inside last night and all was good. I was a t work at the time. We have some kittens that have called this their home and there was one that was playing with Brownies foot. I thought for sure the cat would get stomped but Brownie didn't care. I also noticed that while he was inside last night he kept his back left leg up. So I've asked my friend to come and check him.
 
* he was 3 when gelded.
 
*I noticed that when my friend smacked him for kicking he got more upset and tried to push friend over. And he lifted his leg. Then my friend gave him a kick. Brownie got more upset. Friend calmed him down and got face to face and let him go. Brownie stood there and didn't move. So friend did get control over him, but he also has 40 plus years experience doing this.
 
* I am going to bring PVC with me, I think just to make me feel better. I'm not the kind of person to hit an animal, but being around horses and other trainers, I've seen this method work. I don't want to do this alone though. So when friend comes I will ahve him walk me through everything and talk to me, so that if things do get out of controll. I have someone to protect me.
 
*I have his harness and he use to pull a cart. Man said it's been a few years, so i wonder if I get him walking with that, if it would help.
 
*I took him out this morning, I opened the large door and he walked to me (first time for this) I took him and clamped the chain, and walked slowly, talking, telling him "easy" I clipped him out and went face to face and said "good boy" and I walked back. He was calm, and did not try anything at all. I feel this was my first success with him. So I did feel much better, even though there is still work to do. 
 
* Brownie's about 3 feet tall. i know I should say how many hands, but I don't know. By 3 feet I mean the top of his head.
 
* Is he too fat? I thought so, but all he was ever fed was hay in the winter and left to graze to rest of the time.
 
*We are going to let Brownie out free tomorrow when friend comes. I'm hoping this too will make a difference to a horse that has been on a chain for the past 11 years.
 
* I had it in my head that he would be happy here around people, and being spoiled. Meaning, treats and attention and a clean place/ other than what he was used to. being tied alone, no interaction, and dirty yard and stall.
 
* I do think with work he will do just fine. And the kids are really good. they don't have the thinking of "We got a horse, lets go play with him."  They know this is a powerful animal, and they are not to go unless  with an adult. . My mother watched the kids last night, and she walked Brownie around the yard with out a problem. She also allowed Logan (9) to walk him with her also holding. She said he did great.
 
I am willing to work for this to work. But if trainer and I can't nip it in the butt, he will not stay. I am going to give it time.  I may sound like a terrible person,  I was not expecting to have a problem, because I've never felt threatend. But this isn't only about me, I have 3 small people to watch over. I really do like Brownie and I want him to stay, but I also need him to have manners. So keep your fingers crossed. I have lots of work ahead of me.

ORIGINAL: chewbecca

when I asked my question, I was being serious.
 
...but I was willing to accept an answer of "you don't understand, this is HOW you train horses" because I honestly didn't know any better.

I knew that and when I addressed your post.  Your post was a perfect spring board for me to address those that feel it is okay to beat horses as a means to "effectively & quickly" train them...and to establish leadership via fear tactics and intimidation with physical force...likening it to herd behavior.
 
Hope you didn't think I was being a stinker towards you because it wasn't my intention.

ORIGINAL: angeltrudelle

*I noticed that when my friend smacked him for kicking he got more upset and tried to push friend over. And he lifted his leg. Then my friend gave him a kick. Brownie got more upset. Friend calmed him down and got face to face and let him go. Brownie stood there and didn't move. So friend did get control over him, but he also has 40 plus years experience doing this.

OMG, I'm going to blow a gasket!  Just because a trainer has 40 years experience doesn't mean that he's right.  Just because this method can work and be highly effective does not make it right.
 
It was perfectly okay and accepted many moons ago to smack children as a means to behavior modification and punishment.  Well, today, parents will hardly smack their children - for fear of retribution - but also because it's not necessary.  I remember when we were living in Texas, I was in grade school, our school Principle used to walk around with a paddle in his back pcoket.  For some, the visual was enough...for some others not-so-much.  Even teachers were allowed to hit.
 
The moral of my rant: Just because it works does not make it right.  Unless asked, this will be the last you hear of me on the matter.
 
I hope you were able to take some golden nuggets out of all the responses you've received here.
 
 

You all know that I have horses. I've owned/handled some pretty mean ones, as well. Do I advocate beating the snot out of them? Of course not. But, sometimes a quick, pointed thump isn't a bad thing, once you've exhausted your other options. Also, like any training method, dog or horse, thumping works for some horses, and just really peeves others off. You need to know the personality of the equine you are working with.

I know many people who have acheived obedience by breaking their horse's spirit. That is not right. But, if you need to get a horse's attention, and by thumping it on the rear, you get it, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially if it increases safety.

Angel, The articles I linked should give you the concepts to start with. When you go to the farm/feed store ask for a sorting pole. (4 ft fiberglass stick) As for trainer recommendations I would suggest you start watching Clinton Anderson. He is very easy to understand for beginners, since you have kids and other family members involved. RFD-TV has many horse training shows including Clinton. It is on our satellite channel 231.
Check your library for any training videos. Check around for other mini or horse owners and/or 4H chapter. Horse people usually are very willing to help. You just need a little help with the basics to get you started.

Dogs and horses are MUCH differnt animals. I would never beat a dog. A good smack to a horse doesnt harm it, these are STRONG 1200+lbs of animal, that in alot of cases stand taller then a human. A smack on the butt does no real harm. I have seen horse beat the snot out of each other with their full force and no one was seriously hurt. Dealing with a horse is very differnt then a dog. A smack with a crop doesnt hurt, its like a little bee sting, it DOES get the attention and it gives them the attitude of "Oh geeze this person is trying to boss me around, and inreturn they will learn that you are alpha." Horse ALL do this to each other to win top spot. It is not cruel at all to smack a horse with a crop or a whip. I have and will continue to do it. Most of the time even rasing it in their direction is enough that they will back off. You do NOT want 4 huge 1200+lbs animals running you over.

Remember this is a miniature horse not a 1200 + lbs horse. Some pony's can be stubborn. I have had plenty of them. I had a Shetland pony when I was young and had POAs as a adult + had Quarter Horses all the time. I`ll take a big horse over a pony any day. I don`t think angletrudelle got a horse for the kids to ride just for a pet unless I read something wrong somewhere. I hope everything turns out ok for the pony and the family. You can do it angeltrudelle I know you can with patience, love, time and hubbys and your friends help.

I agree and disagree with peoples opinions on here yes some horses need a firm hand but after having many abused horses I prefer to use a whip as it was intended to be used as a riding devise not a beating device or even to use on the ground most of the horses I lunge without a lunge whip and use voice and hand controls. I do not agree with pat parelli and think it's a load of bull [sm=censored.gif]. But some natural horsemanship is good to an extent. I find PVC pipe is best as well as your hand from what has been said about this pony I don't think he is really nasty I think he has learnt bad habits! I'd imagine even a loud NO would work but I'm of the thinking that angeltrudelle's friend is helping and if he feels the need to treat the pony in the manner he takes it's most likely the best action to use. But lets remember everyone does things differently with horses and everyone has different opinions.

You should NEVER *beat* a horse. NEVER. The way I was taught to use a whip was as an extension of my arm or leg. The long lunge whip was never used ON the horse. Always as a way to apply pressure to move the horse forward or slow the horse down or ask for a turn. The closer you moved the whip to the back of horse, the more "pressure" you put on the horse to move forward. If you really needed to up the pressure, you could "pop" the whip right behind them. It was used more as a signal than a physical discipline device.

The riding crop is only used to reinforce the leg aids when the horse won't respond and is ONLY used BEHIND the saddle. Cues to move forward, sideways or pick up the correct lead in the canter are always cued primarily with leg aids. When the horse does not respond to the leg aid a quick pop with the crop is in order. No nagging with the leg aids, no repeated pops with the crop.

When carrying a crop or bat to reinforce ground manners, you use it more like the lunge whip - a cue to drive the horse away from you when misbehaving - not a punisher. First, work on training him to face you whenever you approach. Treats are a good way to do this IF he doesn't bite. If he turns his back to you in the field, chase him off. If he doesn't want to face you, he's going to have to do some work and move away. If he turns his back to you when on lead or tied, again, make him move away from you and out of your space. When he faces you, reward him. Horses, like dogs, have a hierarchy based on who owns that space. Let him know you do.

Learn how to lunge him and teach him voice commands. This is very helpful for MANY horses that have poor ground manners.

I just read this entire thread.
 
I'm absolutely appalled and shocked.  You guys/gals mention beating horses or at the very least "giving him a good whack" or a "thump" with whatever as if it was casually suggesting taking someone out to dinner.
 
Nobody gave a second thought to the "let him get settled" suggestion.  There was no mention of "try this first" and then step up to the next increment of training. 
 
I'm no horse expert, nor am I even an amateur, but I have been around them before-some that liked people, some that hated people, some that liked their goats more than they liked their people...and so on.  I know horses aren't stupid. 
 
Is the first logical step to training a horse to "come at it" with a whip?  Sorry, I don't and won't believe that.