Do you think Kramer (from Seinfeld) is racist?

In this careful day and age, when black men can call themselves N_ all day and no-one else would dare, and yet the unemployment rate for black men in the neighborhood I currently work in is like 75%... that does mean something.

 
Sorry, this part confuses me.  Are you saying that even though a white person is careful not to use the N word, the employement rate is still low?  As if the 2 are somehow correlated?  I think I understand most of what you're saying - just confused by this example. 
 
Also, on the general topic of racism.  Let's be real.  There is a certain amount of intellectual "training" that happens to many of us from early on.  The ability to extinguish certain words from your vocabulary does not automatically make you exempt from racism.  It's the way you think about people and react to them without compassion for a reality different than your own.  It can be very subtle. 
 
I know that has nothing to do with Kramer, just a thought that popped into my head!

I just have a hunch that we'll be seeing something soon stating he's checked himself in to a rehab facility or is seeking mental health counseling.   That'll make it all better, right [:-]?
 
I'm not sure which bothers me more,  the words he used or the viciousness he showed.  My friend has a saying "what's down in the well, comes up in the bucket".   I think that's true whether your angry or drunk.

Oh. What I mean is that not saying racist things has little to do with living in a less racist world. And in my experience not saying racist things can mask racist behavior, or make living in a racist world something that nobody wants to or feels empowered to change.

Not that I have a solution to racism in my back pocket, lol. I'm just saying that there is something about talking openly in terms of race, even when it's ugly, that makes racism easier to actually work through than not talking about it.

Example: I used to work in the public schools in Brooklyn, and was on more than one occasion called a "cracker" by a child. And because I was a teacher and the commenter was a child, it was appropriate to talk about it, to ask what that word means, etc. And these discussions were pretty interesting and useful. On the other hand, older children who know what the word "cracker" means would never call me that to my face, but were maybe just thinking it. I can't do anything about that--I have no tools to deal with unverbalized thoughts, even if the atmosphere in a room (I am not just white, I am really really white, and when I am the only white person in a room I am *crazy* white) is so obvious that it's absurd that you can't just talk about it.

I think the not talking about it thing gives it power--it implicates all of us because none of us are talking about what we obviously see and feel. So yeah, even though what Kramer said was awful, at least he said something. Saying something, even a hateful thing, is taking responsibility for the elephant in the room. Now he can be told that he is wrong, and that is good. It is good because it's better than just taking advantage of the polite silence and being hateful in *deed* but not in *word*.

I think that was my point. It's complicated issue.

ORIGINAL: cakana

I just have a hunch that we'll be seeing something soon stating he's checked himself in to a rehab facility or is seeking mental health counseling.   That'll make it all better, right [:-]?

I'm not sure which bothers me more,  the words he used or the viciousness he showed.  My friend has a saying "what's down in the well, comes up in the bucket".   I think that's true whether your angry or drunk.

 
I agree, Cathy.  Didn't we just hear of this sort of thing with the whole Mel Gibson tirade?
 
I was married to an alcoholic who always said horrible things to me when he was drunk that he'd follow with "just kidding".  Or in the morning claim he didn't say it or mean it.  My logic: alcohol always gave him the cajones to say what he thought and felt, even if he wouldn't dare say it sober.

Only he knows whether he is racist or not.  His outburst doesn't indicate, to me, one way or the other. 
 
 If a man calls a woman a "bitch," is he a misogynist?  Perhaps.  But again, there is not enough information for me to form that conclusion.

ORIGINAL: snownose

I say yes, no doubt, but on the other hand why is it that when a white person makes comments like that it is all over the news?

I know that Kanye West is as racist as they get(he is a rapper btw.), you hear nothing in the news about his remarks, and if you do it doesn't get blown up like that.

It's almost like the media is afraid to tackle someone like him. The thing about Kanye is he doesn't even retract any of his comments.

 
Steady there, Karyn.  This forum is way too politically correct to SERIOUSLY discuss something like that.  []

ORIGINAL: probe1957

Only he knows whether he is racist or not.  His outburst doesn't indicate, to me, one way or the other. 

If a man calls a woman a "bitch," is he a misogynist?  Perhaps.  But again, there is not enough information for me to form that conclusion.

 
And the point I was trying to make is not only is it nearly impossible to determine such a thing (is or isn't one), why would we? What difference does it make? What does that really mean anyway? If you're Not A Racist does that mean you can say whatever you want about race and we'll overlook it?... if you're Not A Misogynist can you say degrading things about women and not actually be degrading them? I don't think it works that way.

If you're Not A Racist does that mean you can say whatever you want about race and we'll overlook it?... if you're Not A Misogynist can you say degrading things about women and not actually be degrading them? I don't think it works that way.
 
Erin,
 
Nicely put.

ORIGINAL: jones
And the point I was trying to make is not only is it nearly impossible to determine such a thing (is or isn't one), why would we? What difference does it make? What does that really mean anyway? If you're Not A Racist does that mean you can say whatever you want about race and we'll overlook it?... if you're Not A Misogynist can you say degrading things about women and not actually be degrading them? I don't think it works that way.

 
Well said.

I haven't forgiven Mel Gibson nor forgotten.  His behavior was deplorable.  Kanye West, I have to agree, all I really know of him is the news coverage of his tirades so it DOES make the news.  And he's not quite as widely known across age/race/gender groups in this country so that might account for a little less coverage.  He's certainly a real celebrity and an influential one, but not as widely known a celeb as MG or an actor from Seinfeld.
 
While I haven't watched the whole thing, I've seen quotes from this outburst which were even more telling and just as ugly, I think, as the "n" word.  Didn't the outburst also include a reference to lynchings and sodomy?  To me, that's really threatening and sick and wrong and intolerable.  Not to underplay the significance of that hateful word...

When I reviewed the footage, and I saw it probably 15 times just like everyone else, I thought it looked like he was on or .  He was on something, that's for sure.  Whether he's a racist or not, I won't say.  I will say that what he said was horribly offensive and I would have walked out. 

I think his rage is a symptom of our times however.  I'm not a fan of hyphenated americans.  I don't think the -american is a good concept.  My people aren't from here-my strongest roots are from Ireland, but my family also came from Germany, England and France.  Does that make me a Western European American?  I'll just stick with American.  No disrespect meant to anyone's heritage, but the quickest way to tear a nation apart is to start labeling, classifying, and stratifying everyone.  To qualify my previous statement, I don't anyone.  I don't have attitudes that are based upon looks, ethnicities or languages spoken. 

With that said, the words that were spoken at the comedy club have served only to belittle Kramer (Richards) in my world.  Do I label him a racist?  No.  I do label him a r, and that, in my book, is intolerable.

ORIGINAL: cakana

I just have a hunch that we'll be seeing something soon stating he's checked himself in to a rehab facility or is seeking mental health counseling.   That'll make it all better, right [:-]?

I'm not sure which bothers me more,  the words he used or the viciousness he showed.  My friend has a saying "what's down in the well, comes up in the bucket".   I think that's true whether your angry or drunk.

I so agree with you, and that's a great saying! I was going to watch the video, but it said it "wasn't available", and after reading some of the transcript, I'm glad, because I just don't think I want to see all that hate. It's like exposing yourself to a toxic substance.

and I saw it probably 15 times just like everyone else,

Seriously - once was quite enough and I'm so not interested in ever seeing it again.  It can't possibly get better each time and I formed my opinion within the first few seconds.  It is not entertainment to me.

Nobody here has mentioned that comedy has a real history of probing race as an issue in ways that you can't in polite society. I mean, Kramer was responding to a heckler, he was not making a point he was just angry and shooting from the lip. But he sounded a lot like Lenny Bruce, who was making very serious points about racism that were often misunderstood as racist.

I don't buy that he's straightforwardly hateful, because by now everyone knows that the easiest way to be hateful is to be quiet. Like Kanye West, perhaps he was attempting provocation--you can only do that when you're invested and taking responsibility for what you say.

Actually, I think the line is often a very fine one between comic genius and complete insanity.  He seems to fall somewhere on the line favoring the latter, or he would be able to contain his anger.  As to his being a racist, I'm not sure.  Older people grew up in a slightly different world, where epithets were more commonly used, and the brain is, after all, a repository for lots of information, not all of it savory.  Anger can be explosive, and can make certain individuals say things that they would otherwise not.  It's very easy to see how someone, whose career now sucks, could be upset enough at a combination of events, to make such a blunder.  For most of us, that would mean embarrassment, an apology, perhaps some serious self-evaluation (many racists believe that they are not - and the black race is not the only one that people are bigoted against), but for him it meant national scrutiny, and perhaps a step closer to jumping off the proverbial bridge he was already teetering on.
I have, many times, heard people who claim not to be racist say things that plainly are, with not so much as a thought who was sitting next to them.  How many times have you heard the phrase, "Maybe I can jew him down"?  I've heard it a lot, because white Christians who live and work near me believe, somehow, that everyone who lives and works near them is a white Christian.  So, even people who say things quite innocently, and when confronted will apologize (and who really *don't* mean any harm), can say things that have a racist tone.  Someone where I work, when she found out that I have First Nations background, put her hand to her mouth and let out her version of an Indian war whoop.  Should I be offended?  Perhaps.  But, if she were to learn a lesson and apologize, should I reject her apology?  I don't see that it matters *why* someone apologizes - I think, however, that you then judge them on their future conduct.  If they continue to do the things that have offended, then, yes, I think you shun them.  If they learn, then you exhibit compassion.  Mitakuye oyasin.  We are all related.