"pack behavior" question

I let Max out the door first when we're going for a walk because he's the one that's all excited, jumping around in the entry doing the *happy dog dance* [] and I snap his leash off on the porch when we come back and let him in first to head for his water bowl.  He still know's who is *alpha*.  While we're walking sometimes he's a little ahead & sometimes he's off to the side.  I don't really care as long as he isn't trying to drag me down the bike path.

Joyce

The pack leader theory is definately true. Dogs will follow  the pack leader and have an order they walk in while in a ack environment. The way they eat (and who eats first) is all part of it too. The alpha always walks ahead of the pack, eats first and everything else. I make my dog wait to be fed until the cats have eaten before I ever invite him to go to his food dish. In that way I am making my cats dominant over my dog (for their safety). I definately follow the idea that my dog walks behind me and I go out the door before him. He has shown fear aggression to a ton of people before I got him and from the very first day I interacted with him I made sure he knew I was Alpha. He will allow me and my husband to touch him anywhere and do anything to him without him reacting to us, but no one else can. My kids (early 20's) have not been ack leader with him and he has snarled at both of them on multiple occassions for no apparent reason. If I didn't show I was the  alpha dog in every situation he would run our household (and probably eat my cats)! Most people never reallly have to worry about who is dominant because their dogs don't have major issues, but especally with dogs who can be aggressive or destructive the owner being the alpha is REALLY important!.      

I don't believe this. I let my dog, Dingo, go out the door first and let him walk in front if he chooses.He knows that BF and I are alpha to him, but out of the 3 I have, he is alpha to them. Walks first, eats first, etc...

Yes, pack hierarchy behavior is real.  Alpha wolves lead the hunt and sometimes, especially in winter when the snow is deep, wolves will walk in a single file line - with the alpha in front.  The alpha always holds his head and tail high when greeting other wolves and the others hold theirs low and keep their ears back.  It's pretty standard behavior for wolves.  Dogs, of course, can recognize these signs, but because humans and dogs have a hard time reading each other's language completely, a lot can get miscommunicated.  We spend a lot of time on the ground hugging our dogs, kissing them, patting them, catering to their every needs...we don't mean to be telling them that they're superior, but sometimes that's how it comes off to them as.  Dogs with more dominant personalities (comprable to the kind of mindset that would make a wolf an alpha) need to be constantly reminded that they are in fact NOT in control of things.  Dogs who constantly challenge their authority over you...it's those guys who should wait at the door for you to go out first or who should walk behind you on walks.  Other dogs, however, are just naturally submissive and have no desire to run the show...well they don't need the reinforced behaviors because they understand already that you're the boss.  They can go out a door first and won't be thinking at all about who's going first, rather how exciting it is to go outside.  It depends entirely on the dog in my opinion.  Know your own dog's personality and then determine whether or not that dog needs constant reminders as to who's boss.  Then again some people just choose to make their dogs wait anyways just to have them practice good manners. 

My dogs are more than welcome to preceed me out the doors or up the stairs....as long as they "wait" until I tell them "ok".  I agree with Joyce....I'm not the one doing the happy dance all over the foyer.  As for where they walk?  The walk is for THEM not me.  So long as they come to heel when asked, I could care less if they are ahead of me, behind me, along side me or flying overhead.  And that applies to on or off lead.  When they are off lead they are constantly checking back on MY location so that they know where I am since we have an unspoken rule about getting too far ahead.  They KNOW who their leader is and I don't have to enforce some silly rules to remind them.

This is so similar to what happened today, in my house. I'm watching a friends dog and as soon as he entered the house he and Dingo did their meet and greet. Dingo, clearly alpha, tail held high, standing tall and Stuart, ears back, tail low, trying to kiss Dingo and laying down at the same time.I love watching how they handle their ranking orders. The other two took their cue from Dingo that Stuart is alright and couldn't care less.

If I didn't show I was the alpha dog in every situation he would run our household (and probably eat my cats)! Most people never reallly have to worry about who is dominant because their dogs don't have major issues, but especally with dogs who can be aggressive or destructive the owner being the alpha is REALLY important!.

I agree completely.  And, it may seem like silly rules to some but to me it's injury preventing and life saving for her. 

You'd have to see it to understand.  For example, say I was to let Willow just do whatever, no sit before things, etc.  She would quickly, really quickly like within 4 or 5 days, start to not listen to anything we ask of her, she actually will look up at the sky, beyond us, anywhere but at us.  She will pull and get grumbly and bark at nothing and just generally start to be "boss" of us and everything else she thinks she can control.  But, with the NILIF program she's not like that.  She NEEDS that reminder daily.  Believe me, I've tried to phase it out, it doesn't work for her. 

So, it's not always the same for every dog.  She knows I'm leader but will try to see if she can get the job if I loosen up too, too much.

I have mine both trained to "wait" at doors until I say "ok", but on stairs, if they're close to me, I don't allow them to shove past me... they either walk next to me or behind me... to prevent death on the stairs!

Wait a sec Lori....I didn't say no rules.  Mine MUST wait until they are released going out, coming in and at the top and bottom of stairs.  They also must wait before they are told ok to eat, to enter or exit a vehicle and so forth.
 
A former member keeps coming to mind.  Her dogs went for walks for exercise and nothing else.  They were not allowed to toilet, they were not allowed to stop and smell the roses, they were to walk at perfect heel for the entire walk and nothing else.  Not even a quick little sniff at something on the sidewalk.  To me that is far too rigid.
 
I think too often people get caught up in proving that they are alpha and ruin a perfectly good relationship with their dogs trying to be dominant.....when the dog knew who the boss was all along and then suddenly 'the boss' got a wild hair and started acting all wierd.  Quite often when this question is asked here, the asker is doing fabulously with their dog, but someone said something that made them start to question if their dog respects them.....not because of something the dog did "wrong".  Do you see what I'm saying?

Interestingly, the trainer that I just met with spent 3 months living with/studying wolves in Alaska, and apparently alpha wolves lead from the back (alpha male last, with alpha female in front), and its the beta wolves that are at the front of the pack- apparently the betas are the ones that have something to prove (that they're better than the alpha's) so they're the ones leading....

I agree that the walk should not be just about exerice, but also the dog being able to experience the outdoors. The walk I believe should also be about a shared experience between owner and dog (a good time to bond) and for some dogs that means you can allow them out the door first and give them as much leash as they want because they know that you are the one in control. For these dogs they are natural followers so there is no issue with being dominant over their human. Some dogs (like mine) can't have that much control during "our bonding time" because they will take that power and run with it. Also my dog has fear aggression issues with strangers and if a stranger comes up to them he may snarl if they frighten him. I have to be perfectly in control of him so that it never gets to that stage. That said, when we first leave the house he has "potty time", then we walk for awhile on a shorther leash. Then I find some nice spots throughout the walk and give him a long leash and then he knows he can sniff to his hearts content, but when the leash tightens off we go again! He is perfectly happy on his walk and is in no way deprived. I wish we could all be so lucky as to have a submisive dog who we could give more freedom to but with some dogs that is not the case. I am sure we have all had countless occassions seeing an owner who is NOT in control of their dog while on a walk and we fear for our dogs safety becasue of someone elses lack of control and understanding that their dog needs limitations. Again, it all depends on the dog!    

I wouldn't call any of my dogs submissive.  But, they ARE trained and they do know who the leader is.  That doesn't mean that I have to physcially lead and who goes through the door first just doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that NO ONE goes through the door without my permission.

ORIGINAL: Vinia

Interestingly, the trainer that I just met with spent 3 months living with/studying wolves in Alaska, and apparently alpha wolves lead from the back (alpha male last, with alpha female in front), and its the beta wolves that are at the front of the pack- apparently the betas are the ones that have something to prove (that they're better than the alpha's) so they're the ones leading....

this is exactly what i was wondering - so if on occasion it seems that the alphas are NOT walking in front, is the theory that walking in front of ones dog enforces dominance actually true?

Max knows the difference between having his leash on and going out for a walk and just having the door open - and he knows he's not supposed to go out if the leash isn't on.  He's very good about that.  If we're unloading groceries from the car, he'll sit as close to the doorway as he can without actually stepping out on the porch. He likes a good view of whatever is happening in the front yard and if something really exciting happens (like maybe the bread gets into a fight with the eggs) he's got a front row seat. Last Friday the Schwans guy was on the porch while I was looking at the catalog.  He was leaning down to pat Max - and Max was leaning out as far as he possibly could without actually putting a paw on the porch ... and licking the guys ear. He has a pretty good handle on what's OK for him to do and what isn't. []

Joyce