Of Wolves and Dogs

Secondly, what we call dog has been around Man for about 100,000 years, eating whatever we cast off or choose to feed them, cooked, grainy, whatever. Third, Man did not tame the wolf. The more docile and omnivorous canids realized that this man-thing threw off a lot of food that they didn't have to hunt for

Hmm...reading this makes me think about what we feed dogs now.  They used to eat garbage type food.  I guess it could be reasonable to say that dogs can "survive" off Garbage of sorts.  So, when these be discussions come up about feeding our dogs better...are we really doing that or is it more of a comfort to us that we are feeding them higher quality food.  Sorry for getting a bit off topic.

Firestorm, while that may be true, garbage of the past and present are totally different things. Garbage of the past would have been fairly "fresh" (if only a couple days dead []) and wouldn't have been preserved with possible cancer-causing chemicals. It might have included the bones of slaughtered live stock, intestines, stomach, lungs..whatever parts of that animal said people didn't eat/use. I'd suspect that the wolves would have also gone off and hunted and killed prey as well as scavenge human garbage. The left-overs from human food, I would suspect, was often slim, based on the season.

Maybe so...but then we are pickling ourselves and our pets with the preservatives.  But what if the dogs were eating moldy/rotting food, would that be better then the stuff on our shelves now?  Just sitting here drinking coffee and trying to wake up so if I am not making sense forgive me.

Puma, as to wolves being shy. I think it may help you to think of the Galapagos islands. None of the animals there are particularly shy...in fact they are quite tame, owing mainly to having never seen or viewed humans before...much less viewed them as THREATENING things to run from. I personally do not think wolves were ALWAYS shy animals, I think they have become so as their relationships with people changed.
 
I think in the beginning...and this predates the ability of people to even CATCH a wolf much less kill one...we were quite evenly matched, pack animals that wandered around and looked for food. I think both sides scavaneged off one another equally when kills were made...it was give and take, with occasional losses on both sides. As with the animals on the African savanahs...there is a pecking order, vultures, jackals, hyenas, big cats...all may feed from the same kill at different times with varying amounts of tension.
 
We I think feared the wolf in the beginning, because they outnumbered us, and had better weaponry. Fire leveled things out a bit....then perhaps the balance began to shift...as we became better hunters. Perhaps it was less us scavenging from them...and more vice versa. Perhaps...having the keen sense of pack, dominance and submissiveness they became aware of how much easier it was to show your belly, and appear non threatening, via 'tolling' type behaviours and belly crawling...to obtain food from a human than hunt it themselves.
 
I can see...packs of humans assailing a wolf pack with stones are weapons to make them give over a kill...dominance, and also instilling that kernel of respect and fear of us.
 
I think it was a symbiotic relationship...certainly not warm and fuzzy...but there were things to be gained on both sides...for us, protection from the real dangers to early man, other men....wolves around a homesite would give early warning..and maybe that warning would extent to outright attack. Maybe the first time that happened the people really understood what a good deal this could be...and purposefully set out to MAKE the wolves stay around, by stealing pups and keeping them caged so the dams would hang around...eventually raising the pups, etc.
 
IMO it wasn't so much taming at the beginning as exerting dominance and our will, and wolves became "shy" as time went on, we began raising livestock and viewing the undomesticated wolves out there as a problem and threat...and actively pursuing their demise.
 
If you have read or watched "Guns Germs and Steel' he has some good ideas on how and why certain types of animals were eventually domesticated, and others not.
 
Farlet Mowat has also shown us how even the most 'shy' wolf will be won over almost into touching distance within the space of months...patience, routine, rewards, curiosity...using these tools I think even now taming a wolf from the wild would be possible, we see it routinely with bears, deer, feral cats, and other seemingly "timid" or 'flighty' species.
 
As to the omnivore part...not sure what the percentages are either. I haven't looked at the other thread and don't plan to so I'll leave the nutrition part. []

IMO shyness, or the avoidance of man, is a learned behavior.  It is passed on by the pack leaders to the cubs and pups.  Why else would a 1500lb grizzly bear seek to avoid humans?  He doesn't seek to avoid much else.  Same with the wolves. 
 
In reference to eating of vegetable and plant matter, I think it depends upon environmental factors as well.  Desert dogs will eat vegetation when water is scarce.  I'm sure that they'd rather have a nice juicy haunch of gazelle, but that will just increase  the need for water as well.  Certain dogs, pharaoh hounds in particular, will also lick the water off of plants, or off of other dogs.
 
I'm glad you brought this point up because I know of a certain dog food manufacturer that believes that canids, as well as other carnivores, devour the digestive tract of prey species first due to the higher vegetable content.  My own opinion is that they are eating the mesentery of the animal because of it's high fat content first, the digestive tract is connected to this tissue and most carnivores aren't the best of butchers. 
 
My two cents only.
 
Below is Xerxes with a male deer...

Puma, as to wolves being shy. I think it may help you to think of the Galapagos islands. None of the animals there are particularly shy...in fact they are quite tame, owing mainly to having never seen or viewed humans before...much less viewed them as THREATENING things to run from. I personally do not think wolves were ALWAYS shy animals, I think they have become so as their relationships with people changed. 
 

While this may be true, and someone correct me if I am wrong, it seems that humans and wolves have evolved right along side each other. In other words, unlike the Galapagos Islands, wolves haven't been seperated from humans so, as far as I am aware, wolves have always "known" what people were. Also, we must keep in mind that even cavemen were able to take down mammoths, I'm sure wolves wouldn't have been much more difficult if taken by suprise.

I do agree, it is possible wolves went into a symbiotic type relationship with humans, however we most certainly "tamed" them. We bred them with a specific task in mind, whether be to guard, herd, or pull a sled. However, I do think that several different methods could have been used... for example, one area, people simply stole and raised the pups, another just worked with those born, or another did a mixture of both... like what you said.

Anyway, I think the wolf-dog relationship  is complicated at best... and we'll probably never know the "truth" of how it all happened.

The following is my "theory" of sorts. I loosely use the term "theory" because I haven't researched enough of ancient peoples to say these things in theory format.

As for the dogs eating garbage... yes, I do think they may have eaten rancid meat. They may have also eaten rancid grain... but, it seems that rancid grain is of more of a danger to dogs, as seen in the Diamond aflatoxin scare. I also don't see people from ancient times throwing out grain unless it was rancid... grain keeps better than meat and, I would suspect more likely to be stored. However, esp. with livestock raising peoples, I can see a lot of left over meats that humans either won't or can't eat... such as bones. Also, I don't think most peoples would eat diseased animals, leaving another meat source for their dogs. Of course, then comes into the subject of nomadic people, which were less likely to have crops. The inuits being one example... how would there be enough grains left for the dogs to eat?

I don't know the answers, but it certainly is a complicated subject to say the least. I wouldn't be suprised, before to long, we become aware of different dietary requirements for different breeds from different areas of the earth.

the first canid carnivore you are refering to is the Dire Wolf, am I correct?

 
The father of modern dogs is Tomarctus, who descended from Hesperocyon, who descended from Miacis (is believed to be an early ancestor of several animal species).
 
 
"wolve's feed almost exclusivley are larger ungulates and beavers. I am also unable to find a single site on the web that has them listed as omnivores. I am, in all seriousness, interested in reading sources that state they are omnivores. I also wish I could find, somewhere, how much plant matter an animal must consume to be placed in the "omnivore" category (such as 20%plant 80% meat), but I still am unable to discern that as well."
 
The key word here is ALMOST... wolves do eat plant matter for various reasons. Wording is everything when someone is writing something based on opinion. While there are many, many sources that state canids are carnivores, there are many, many more that state they are omnivores. The factor that determines *if* an animal is carnivore, ominovore, or herbivore is whether or not the animal can survive eating various matter. For example, we all agree that cats are obligate carnivores. This means that they CAN NOT survive with out animal matter. This is not true however with canids. While they are in the order of carnivora, they can and do survive on matter other than "meat". True, they may not thrive if deprived of meat for extensive periods of time (because they are omnivore requiring both), but they can survive. So, it's not a matter of how much (percent wise) meat vs plant matter that makes it a ominvore, but whether or not it can survive. Ungulates must eat large amounts of plant material for survival. You can't feed a horse a diet devoid of plant material and expect it to live for long. Canids are opportunistic scavengers, and will "take" whats available to them to conserve energy when times are lean. This can meet their temporary nutritional needs in order to build up energy for hunting when other matter can't be scavedged.
 
"My final question is, how did man not eventually tame the wolf? Humans, at one point or another, eventually had to tame it... although I, personally am skeptical of the theory that wolves would be around humans scavenging from them, I do think in certain aspects it is plausible.  My reasoning is that wolves are extremely shy animals, and after the pups reach a certain age, the seem rather unwilling to experience or accept new things. Also, many groups of people (especially in Europe) would have killed a wolf on site, would they not?  Although, when you get to the more wolf-friendly peoples of the Americas, I might believe it more. I find the theory that man took wolf pups and tamed them more plausible, but that's just MHO."
 
Here again, it's a win/win situation for both man and wolf. Wolves benefit from the "left overs" from humans. They were able to feed themselves with little expended energy. Humans were able to be alerted to any threats outside their villages.
I believe that domestication was a combination of capturing pups (cubs) AND the habituation of grown wolves depending on the "hand outs" of the villagers.


 

 
 

Wolves do eat plant matter, they will eat grass just as our pet dogs do,, but they get most of their plant material from the intestines and stomachs of the animals they eat. The organs are the richest source or nutriance so they are eaten first.

Dang it forgot to add that many pet dogs will eat poop from horses and deer, why for plant matter of course.

All right, wolve's can "survive" on non-meat substances... but why does Mech state that they are carnivores? He also states that wolves cannot survive on plants (pg. 16. I don't disagree that wolves may, even often, eat small amounts of plants, but cats also, often eat plants... that doesn't make them omnivores, does it? On top of that, I will restate what I did in the other thread... why do carbohydrates wreak havock on dog's teeth and why do they have difficulty digesting unprocessed plant material (or is this a fallacy)? Also, what does every site I look at, academic or other wise, state that their diet is carnivorous (unlike, say, coyotes which are omnivorous)?
 
BTW, I also took the "almost" as the also eat other things like mice and bird... goes to show how different people interepret sources [].
 
I might also mention, that in the "Food Habits" section of his book, he makes no mention of plant matter in the feces of wolves or in his observations of wolves feeding. I would suspect that he would have mentioned it if it made up a significant portion of their diet. Don't you?
 
I do realize Mech is only one source, but I chose him becuase I do know that he is considered one of the "authorities," if you will, on wolves.
 
I also didn't want to get into the discussion on the taxonomy of wolves... I releaze they are in the Carnivora order... but so are bears and maned wolves which are true omnivores.

ORIGINAL: ruffian

Wolves do eat plant matter, they will eat grass just as our pet dogs do,, but they get most of their plant material from the intestines and stomachs of the animals they eat. The organs are the richest source or nutriance so they are eaten first.

Dang it forgot to add that many pet dogs will eat poop from horses and deer, why for plant matter of course.

 
Actually there's a theory that they do this to gain enzymes and bacteria which aid the canid in digestion.

but they get most of their plant material from the intestines and stomachs of the animals they eat. The organs are the richest source or nutriance so they are eaten first.

Once again, when the cats were allowed outside, they would eat mice, chipmunks, red squirrels and other small herbivorous creatures (including grasshopers). I wonder if lions. leopards, and cheetahs will eat the stomach and intestines of gazelles? I suspect they would, especially during periods of prolonged drought when food is scarce. IMO, this does not an omnivore make.
 
As for the poo... well, yeah, my dog eats plastic and tissues... I doubt its for any real reason [].

I wonder if lions. leopards, and cheetahs will eat the stomach and intestines of gazelles? I suspect they would, especially during periods of prolonged drought when food is scarce. IMO, this does not an omnivore make.

 
Hypothetical, yet a valid point or line of reasoning, in not assuming a taxonomy simply because of some errant behavior, such as a big cat munching on  gut contents is not necessarily omnivorous. But a cat is an obligate carnivore by reason of its biology, not incidental behavior. A dog or wolf is an omnivore by reason of it's biology, not just because it may eat the gut contents or some plants.
 
As for finding sources, I'm just a stupid electrician with Google saved in my favorites. You might try the Maned Wolf of South America. In summer, up to 50 percent of its diet will be plant matter. There is one plant it likes so much that they named it for the wolf. Fruta Lobo, Wolf's Fruit. In another book by L. David Mech, he points out that wolves have been observed eating plant matter. Plenty of actual field researchers have seen this omnivorous behavior. You might also check out the New Guinea Singing Dog. It is a prototypical canis familiaris and it is omnivorous, as far as observation can allow.
 
I suggest Google as it may take me some time to round up the references.
 
Also, there is a difference in the coronoid process between dogs and wolves and that that this difference may affect the two, wherein a dog may be more omnivorous in behavior than a wolf but I think it still involves the biology.
 
I would also mention the documentary I saw called "Global Wolf" wherein I saw a wolf eating a berry off of a plant. Even that direct evidence has been disputed here. That's okay, though, because I'll keep mentioning it because it's a cold, hard, documented fact that won't go away regardless of semantics or rhetoric.
 
It's entirely possible that the taming of the dog is a combination of self-taming and Man learning to manipulate the wolf or we're two creatures who simply get along.

ORIGINAL: ron2

But a cat is an obligate carnivore by reason of its biology, not incidental behavior. A dog or wolf is an omnivore by reason of it's biology, not just because it may eat the gut contents or some plants.

 
Well said Ron, its biology. Its the way the animal is designed (stomach design ect ect). If humans ate nothing but meat for the rest of our lives it wouldn't make us a carnivore, well not over night anyway, maybe a few million years.
 
Wolves are omnivores, they lean to the carnivour side of the diet (like me I love steak), but at the end of the day they are still an omnivour.

Wolves are omnivores, they lean to the carnivour side of the diet (like me I love steak), but at the end of the day they are still an omnivour

 
Me, too. I am an omnivore but I do love having dead animal somewhere in my diet.