Westminster tonight

 I agree Jackie but I remain stunned that they lobbied so hard to prevent a law that would have put puppy mills out of business. I know it isn't their responsibility to monitor breeders but surely they want laws in place that protect the good breeders and could help shut down mills - IF they are interested in the advancement of breeds

kpwlee

I remain stunned that they lobbied so hard to prevent a law that would have put puppy mills out of business.

kpwlee

 I agree Jackie but I remain stunned that they lobbied so hard to prevent a law that would have put puppy mills out of business. I know it isn't their responsibility to monitor breeders but surely they want laws in place that protect the good breeders and could help shut down mills - IF they are interested in the advancement of breeds

 For the sake of preserving purebred dogs, it is extremely important that restrictive breeding laws not be passed. I'm glad they are standing up against what is very often HSUS backed legislation. And FWIW they also stand up against BSL.

 Despite good intentions, so far I've yet to see a bill or proposed law I would support that is marketed at stopping puppy mills. :(

Liesje

 Despite good intentions, so far I've yet to see a bill or proposed law I would support that is marketed at stopping puppy mills. :(

Anyway here is a synopsis of the NC bill

The North Carolina state legislature recently attempted to address the issue of puppy mills in our state.  The proposed legislation was not intended to ban commercial breeding.  Rather the intention was to merely provide some oversight of these operations to insure that conditions meet basic humane standards and that breeding is done responsibly to protect consumers and that these large scale breeders operate as the businesses they are.   One would imagine legislation like this would be easy to pass.  The bill was reasonable and moderate (even exempted hunting dogs and only addressed operations with more than 15 female dogs.  Again, it wasn’t going to ban commercial breeding, just bring it in line with the same regulations that pet stores and animal shelters must follow.  The public signed petitions of support and it was endorsed by a coalition of shelters and animal welfare groups, the County Commissioners Association, Sheriff’s Association and the NCVMA.

The bill’s sponsor, Senator Don Davis, had seen firsthand the condition of a puppy mill that was raided in his district.  He hoped to address the issue of oversight and S460 (the bill he sponsored) sought to “eliminate abusive practices and provide for the humane care and treatment of dogs and puppies by establishing standards for their care at commercial breeding operations”.

 and here is a link to the entire thing - I DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE THING

My gripe with the AKC regarding this is hey great you don't want to be involved in regulating breeders fine - stay completely out of it. But they decided to be involved, heavily involved.

kpwlee

My gripe with the AKC regarding this is hey great you don't want to be involved in regulating breeders fine - stay completely out of it. But they decided to be involved, heavily involved.

miranadobe

kpwlee

My gripe with the AKC regarding this is hey great you don't want to be involved in regulating breeders fine - stay completely out of it. But they decided to be involved, heavily involved.

Except when the wording directly impacts the non-commercial breeders, for whom they are invested in protecting.

Paige, did you see wording to that effect in the bill proposed in North Carolina? 

There are 5 versions of it, I haven't read them all.  I got interrupted by my friend coming home after dropping off her dog to have a recently discovered cancerous tumor on her lymph node removed.  Surgeon called - scanned the rest of her body and it's not good.  So, I'm off the forum for a while and won't be checking back in until tonight I suspect.

Sigh.

"§ 19A‑23.  Definitions.

For the purposes of this Article, the following terms, when used in the Article or the rules or orders made pursuant thereto, shall be construed respectively to mean:

…

(5b)      "Commercial breeder" means any person who owns or maintains 15 or more intact female dogs of breeding age and 30 or more puppies primarily for the purpose of sale. This shall not include kennels or establishments operated for the purpose of boarding or training hunting, sporting, herding, show, or working dogs.

(5c)      "Commercial breeding operation" means the physical location or facility at which a commercial breeder breeds or maintains intact female dogs of breeding age and puppies.

Maybe I'm missing something but how do they determine who is breeding sporting, herding, show, or working dogs and who is not?  Do they just take the owner's work for it?  I know of a kennel nearby which I would consider a "commercial" operation, but the breeding dogs all have Schutzhund titles and show ratings.  This is just the type of kennel that *should* be more closely regulated but I bet they could get out of it because technically the breeding dogs are "show dogs" and "working dogs".

miranadobe

kpwlee

My gripe with the AKC regarding this is hey great you don't want to be involved in regulating breeders fine - stay completely out of it. But they decided to be involved, heavily involved.

Except when the wording directly impacts the non-commercial breeders, for whom they are invested in protecting.

This is such a gray area for me.  I tend to lean with AgileGSD and Miranadobe, I would obviously love for the Mills to stop, so wish there was some sort of legislation or way to stop it... but, almost all legislation aimed at slowing breeding is backed by some AR group, usually PETA or HSUS.  Now, of course there are exceptions.

The problem from breeders is that yes, they can aim at the Mills, but once legislation is in place it becomes easier to sneak changes to it, so once the door is opened it can become a slippery slope.  A lot of the time these bills (and I don't know about this one specifically I didn't read it) have it so that the commercial operations can continue and it makes it more and more difficult for the hobby breeder.  Especially when a breeder co-owns bitches (often times to protect the bitch until time that she's spayed, finished or the contract is fulfilled by other means)  ... anyway, it can make a breeder look like she has 20+ intact bitches, while maybe only one or two live with them. 

Really awful that the mills are out there, but I think we need to change this through education (scoff, yes, yes, I know) versus legislation.  Personally.

Sera_J

Really awful that the mills are out there, but I think we need to change this through education (scoff, yes, yes, I know) versus legislation.  Personally.

I really think the only lasting change will be adjusting the demand, rather than trying to cut off the supply.  The problem is that people still buy from breeders like this all the time. Are there really that many people that don't care they are often paying twice as much for a dog that was raised in a filthy cage and comes with some "paper" for a bogus registry?

I guess my personal feeling is why waste time and resources trying to implement new laws that are either ineffective, impossible to enforce (considering the ones we already have aren't very well enforced), and usually hurt the small time hobby breeders that actually have a clue?  I work full time on top of owning, showing, training, and competing with dogs and being a member of various breed/training clubs so I just don't have the energy to go around policing other people.  The best *I* can do is exhibit and maybe some day breed the dogs that *I* feel are exemplars of my breed.  I only hope the quality of the breeding, the training, and the achievements of my dogs speaks for itself.

Liesje

This shall not include kennels or establishments operated for the purpose of boarding or training hunting, sporting, herding, show, or working dogs.

These aren't breeding facilities. 

JackieG

Liesje

This shall not include kennels or establishments operated for the purpose of boarding or training hunting, sporting, herding, show, or working dogs.

These aren't breeding facilities. 

But what if they do both?  Are they only one or the other?  And if so, would they choose to be training vs. breeding?  The breeder's I've got my dogs from breed, train, show, work, and board.