Don't play tug with a dog.

Veronica is not a tug fiend, but she enjoys a good game when she is in the mood.

I was not much into dog training before getting Veronica; but I took my cue from Jean Donaldson and used it to teach her "Drop it", "Leave it", and "sit and wait for the game to start". Then when she became dog reactive, we used it for a version of Leslie McDevitt's "On/off switch game". I think it's a great outlet to not only have fun with your dog, but also to teach cooperative play and impulse control.

That said, I don't think it's the end of the world if you choose not to play tug.

Maybe at the shelter you could explain to people that there is no generic answer, that it depends on the dog and the people; and that if played correctly it can be a great training technique. However you are still up against the whole dominance theory argument; and if someone buys into that then that is their perspective and you are unlikely to change it.

I just want to stress that the setting the tug game would be taking place is in a shelter with shelter dogs.  The people who handle the dogs are volunteers and employees who come in from ranges of almost no knowledge of dogs and want to learn right up to people who are professionals at handling animals.  We are working on conditioning the dogs to behave in a way that the potential adopter would find acceptable.

This environment is much different then a dog who is in a home and already has adapted to a comfortable lifestyle with a family who does the same routine consistently.  In a shelter the dog is walked at least three times a day by three completely different people with three completely different ideas on what they think would be best for that dog.

Liesje

I am curious as to what others mean by "control" when playing tug?

It comes down to consistency in the training and play.  For example, if one person who doesn't mind was to allow the dog to play tug with say, their glove and then the dog plays tug with another person's glove and bites too hard into their hand then dog gets labeled with aggressive behavior.  There have been a few incidents where the dog started playing too rough and bite a little too hard leaving bruises because the walker didn't know how to play in a manner to avoid letting the dog take it too far.  If a dog were to break the skin of a person, even in play, then that dog would have to be put to sleep and tested for rabies.  It's a huge risk we are trying to avoid by simply not allowing it to happen by eliminating what would drive the dog to act that way.  This especially happens in the winter when people are wearing thick coats and the dog sees the sleeves and puffy parts of the coat as plush toys.

Rather then try to explain to everyone why the dog is doing what it does, it's easier to just not allow it to happen in the first place. Another concern is that some dogs will swallow some of the toys if they are not monitored during play.  Yes, there are simple answers to avoid this in the first place but once again, to put everyone on the same page is a rather daunting task.  We have a very high flow of people who come into the shelter everyday.

Also consider that 65% of the dogs in this shelter are pit bulls or pit mixes who are already given a bad label from the very beginning so we have to be extra careful to prove that they are not the horrible beast they have been made out to be.

So it seems to me the most problems people have encountered playing tug are the dog mis-targeting? (biting skin or clothes rather than the toy) I've had that happen a few times.  Honestly I think for overall mouthiness tug *helps* more than it hurts.  It gives the dog a proper outlet for using their teeth.  German Shepherds are known as "landsharks" as far as puppy mouthiness and I've had three puppies so far that have never been mouthy with me other than a mis-target when playing/training (which is the handler's fault for bad presentation or using the wrong toy for the dog).  I tug with Nikon every day and he has never once grabbed my hand or my clothes and started pulling at me. 

I think a good game of tug does require some finess on the part of the handler.  If you're trying to teach a puppy to play and you have a large, stiff tug and wearing loose pants that are flapping around, the puppy may redirect a bit at first because they have to learn the game.  An easy way to control the game is put the dog on a leash and clip it to a fence or tree.  You can wave the toy around or kick it to get the puppy interested and then "offer" a bite on the toy while keeping yourself and your clothes out of range.  If the dog really likes tug I don't think it takes but a few sessions for them to learn that grabbing clothes or the hands gets them nothing.

Here is a dog training with a tug reward (fast forward to 1:00 and beyond) and this dog is showing some high level obedience, not grabbing all over the handler or showing "dominance" or "aggression".  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDxio9TORVU

Outing/dropping the tug is kind of a catch 22 people so many people apparently have this as a "rule" yet it is something that must be taught and can take a while with a dog that has a lot of drive for tugging.  I don't list it as one of my rules because I can get the tug or toy back easy enough without requiring the dog to out/drop.  The easiest way is to just have two of the same toy, make the other one "live" and when the dog drops the one he was, snatch it up while you're tugging with the "live" one. 

Some people have special tug toys, I usually just play tug with whatever toys are lying around, so I don't need to take them away and put them up.  I do use Gappay balls for Nikon's Schutzhund training and I put these away but that's to keep the dogs from chewing the strings off.  We have several where the string popped out during tugging so I make a little tab with the string and give the ball to Nikon.  He's got half a dozen of them lying around the house at his disposal yet this does not diminish his drive for playing with *me* one bit.  When I'm ready to train and have a dog that understands toys/tug as a reward for training, I can pick up any dog toy off the ground and use it for training with the same results.

Yes Lies, mis-targeting is a major issue and I really do appreciate your training advice. I just wish I could apply that somehow to the training and enrichment protocols we do with dogs in the shelter.  As our program evolves I am hoping we can incorporate more of this positive play with our dogs.

I wish people were as easy to train as dogs.  I don't mind playing tug with a dog, I enjoy it and encourage it with my own dogs and fosters.  However, when a dog's life is at risk because several handlers are not as well informed about dog behavior, it becomes dangerous to allow this type of play without guidance.

The dominacne whispering BS theroy is a problem that often pops it's nasty head in the door.  We have people who think they know whats best for our dogs and want to save them all.  I admire all of them for their devotion to animals but we have proticals in place to protect the dogs because of people who misuse bad information.  We are not a no-kill shelter but we sure do try our best to work with "problem dogs". We are an open door non-profit shelter and do not turn anything away for any reason.  We take in many animals that other shelters already turned away because we feel that is the most responsible thing to do for the animal.  This makes some of our choices rather difficult but we try to do what is in the best intrest of the animal.  Once a dog passes our temperment test and medical exam it has a home with us until it is adopted with no time limits. 

Xebby

I wish people were as easy to train as dogs.  I don't mind playing tug with a dog, I enjoy it and encourage it with my own dogs and fosters.  However, when a dog's life is at risk because several handlers are not as well informed about dog behavior, it becomes dangerous to allow this type of play without guidance.

This ^ , I see is our problem.  I think our volunteers and even some staff need more training and guidance when working with the dogs, especially dogs we are trying to make more adoptable.  I see way too much going on with them and wish they knew a bit more about how to deal with the behaviors.  And I agree that these people shouldn't be playing tug with these dogs. 

When we used to volunteer, the dogs were so stir crazy we could never play anything with any of them!  They just wanted to be OUT, so we took them on loooong walks and DH would even jog them.  If we put them in a run with toys they would just sprint back and forth, bouncing off the fences. There was a runner that came in with us and she jogged all the dogs she got out.  There were a few dogs that were naturally very calm and low energy and I did some training with them but for the most part I can definitely understand that good intentions of training and playing go out the window in a shelter situation.

I don't think that the dogs really need to be approached any different as far as playing tug w/ a shelter dog vs. your own pet, but I think they have different needs and most of the time, they just need to burn as much energy as possible and get some fresh air.  Any "bad" behaviors like mouthiness, resource guarding, etc are there regardless of playing tug or not, and not playing tug will not address these behaviors.  I agree with not playing tug b/c it's not really what the dogs need but I don't agree with the reasoning behind not doing it.

Liesje

Any "bad" behaviors like mouthiness, resource guarding, etc are there regardless of playing tug or not, and not playing tug will not address these behaviors.  I agree with not playing tug b/c it's not really what the dogs need but I don't agree with the reasoning behind not doing it.

I think you pinpointed something we have been trying to get across here for a long time. 

I don't entierly agree with the reasoning either but am trying to explain the logic behind it by saying that it appears to be safer to avoid the action rather then focuse on the cause.  With the high number of volenteers and staff we have, it becomes difficult to allow some people that much freedome to do as they like because they often take advatange of that chance and find that they can get away with more behaviors we discourage.  We try to pride ourselves on our ability ro rehabilitate dogs, however, we still have a lot to learn and a ways to go. I am open and always seeking out advice on how to improve not only my own training tequinques but also do what I can to enrich these dogs lives duing the time they are under my care.

Lies, my guidelines (I don't say rules, as it's not set in stone and every dog has its own little "rules" based on the family) are based upon dogs that already have issues, or with new handlers who don't even know "how" to play tug safely, who have dogs who are already tugging on other things like leashes, clothing, and shoelaces, etc. Other times there are young children in the home and I don't think that young children should be playing tug, so having designated tug toys versus anything the child picks up and swings around is a safety factor and an absolute must IMO.

When I play with my own guys I often just pick up the nearest toy and will use it as a tug toy for that moment. But my dogs have a history of "knowing the game", they don't tug inappropriately on other things, have great impulse control in other venues, and know that the fun comes from the "togetherness" that it involves. Yours I imagine are the same, because you train to a high level of control and skill.

But.....

When it comes to new owners, or owners having problems - they need black-and-white understanding with easy-to-understand guidelines so they don't end up reinforcing unwanted behaviours and where there is no gray area or room for error. The guidelines are sometimes more for the owner than they are for the dog, although there are some dogs who barely even know how to "sit" and have been reinforced for pushy, obstinate, and rude behaviours to get their way, so need a level of impulse control in play to prevent problems. I see every level of experience with my clients (from super-savvy owners to owners whose child is on the floor with a dog toy in its mouth enticing the dog to play tug of war), with every level of skill, so it's important for them to be able to easily understand how a good, safe, tug game works, and at the same time how "not" to play it.

I guess I don't really understand how tugging specifically gets pegged with a lot of other unwanted behavior.  Like I said my puppies have always tugged, and none of them have been mouthy or inappropriately pushy with known dogs or people.  Coke can sometimes too pushy with other dogs and will be guardy of very high value treats, but doesn't like to tug, I don't think I've tugged more than 30 seconds combined with him.  I guess to me it's like saying we should avoid training with treats because it *might* encourage a dog to be food aggressive or bite our hands all the time.  We know the opposite is probably true - train with treats and handfeed and the dog learns *how* to get that resource from us without being guardy/aggressive and how to take a treat properly.  Does playing fetch encourage a dog to run away and not come back?  I don't think so.

I just don't really see the connection between dogs that have unwanted behavior and/or lack control and boundaries, and playing tug. 

I agree with not letting children tug.  I don't let anyone but my DH tug with my GSDs, but they are probably more of an exception (large, powerful, trained to bite/grip a certain way so if they re-grip for a better grip there's a good chance of mis-targeting if you're not used to their game).

Liesje

I guess I don't really understand how tugging specifically gets pegged with a lot of other unwanted behavior.  Like I said my puppies have always tugged, and none of them have been mouthy or inappropriately pushy with known dogs or people. 

Yes, but I wasn't addressing *not playing tug*, I've already said these are dogs I WILL use tug for, and for good reason!

I was addressing the need for "Tug with Rules" and when you commented that you didn't understand the need for "control" or "rules" - for these types of dogs, so that they can build impulse control and work through arousal. Tug without rules for dogs who have learned how to use control and pushiness to get their way with their owners already, and who have been reinforced for it,  is a mess waiting to happen, especially for people who don't know how to use it well.

I think something got mixed up in the last few posts......

Liesje

I just don't really see the connection between dogs that have unwanted behavior and/or lack control and boundaries, and playing tug. 

I don't either, and it wasn't me who mentioned that there was any correlation anyhow.  I was addressing teaching tug to dogs as a behaviour modification tool who already have a unwanted behaviour, lack control, and have no boundaries, and why rules for those dogs are important, at least in the beginning.

But I think (and am sure you'll agree) that dogs need to learn boundaries and impulse control, in general.  I don't think tug is any more or less important as far as rules and boundaries.  Generally the people I can think of who might struggle with using tug (assuming their dogs will actually play) are people who struggle with this concept across the board, and wouldn't really have issues that are specific to tugging but because they are not very dog savvy in general.  I just find it odd that people have all these rules about tug (dog must sit and wait, no barking, no growling, dog must instantly release on command, the only tug toy that is used are ones that are kept hidden, owner always wins, etc) and yet allow their dogs to treat them like doormats in every other context.  This goes way beyond this thread or shelter dogs, I'm just saying in general I have seen many people with strange attitudes towards tug similar to what is described in the original post.

Tug without rules for dogs who have learned how to use control and pushiness to get their way with their owners already, and who have been reinforced for it,  is a mess waiting to happen, especially for people who don't know how to use it well.

In many ways it makes sense but I have seen the opposite to be true.  Our Schutzhund club recently had a bunch of people come out for a new perspective on their training.  They had some nice working dogs but struggled with even the most basic things like sit and platz.  Several of them lacked any sort of relationship with their dog, no respect between handler and dog.  Dogs blowing people off, getting frustrated and redirecting inappropriately, etc.  You name it, we saw it and it was bad.  Instead of doing an obedience seminar, we showed every single one of them how to use tug games and had them start playing with their dogs.  They came back a week later and showed vast improvement.  I think a lot of boundary/respect issues between dog and handler are not really because the dog itself is more pushy, but because there is a lack of communication or connection between the dog and handler.  The dog has no reason to obey or enjoy the company of the handler.  Tug is so simple, the human holds one end and the dog holds the other.  Either the dog enjoys it or he doesn't and it's not really something you can screw up.  In just a few sessions of tug play with NO obedience required the dogs are already becoming MORE biddable and attentive because they now see their handler as a fun person and they want to interact with the handler, not just win the toy and take it away so they can do whatever they want.  There is a relationship and respect that needs to happen before there can be any expectation of using a tug as an obedience reward or for training self control.

I'm coming from the perspective of Willow has unresolved issues that are not related specifically to tug.  But, I avoid playing it with her because whenever I did it appeared to quickly become not "tug" anymore but something more like kill the prey and it was very difficult to control her as far as she was missing the toy and getting higher and higher on my hand/arm, the growling would go from playing to a much more serious growl.  Its like that game just triggered something in her-something that I was trying to discourage so I stopped playing it.  

I'm on the other side of the coin, i have to say I've had two bad experiences with tug. I was working on rehabilitating an aggressive-dominant Weimeraner and tug was the worst idea ever. After we had developed a good relationship, i started playing games. We started with a fetch, and she got the "Drop it" part quickly, getting her to follow basic commands, identifying different toys and bringing them, chase, find hidden items, Frisbee. (Smartest dog i've ever worked with BTW) One day i decided to play tug, it was 3 mo. of rehab down the drain. After tugging, she got it and instantly became toy aggressive, snappy, would not let go, to the point of growling at my hand if i did not give her the toy. (Not a playing growl) After that it was a few days before she would even follow basic commands again. A freak incident perhaps, but enough for me to realize that the dominance theory is not pure BS.

My beagle loves tug, but if i "win" the tug and i taunt her with it, she will go strait for my hand (ie. why should i grab the tug when i can get the hand and automatically win the tug as well). A playful bite, but still not acceptable behavior. On the other hand she will play with the grey untill he is tired of pulling (5-10min) and they both enjoy it immensely.

Again, i think it depends on the dog/situation, like someone mentioned earlier, very few things apply to all dogs in all circumstances.

 Tootsie, a very sensitive Corgi. Will tug on occassion and loves it. I let her win and I win too, by saying 'drop". I also think it builds confidence in her.