I may have to retract my statement and support....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Maxs Mom
     I hope she got a kick or two in... obviously not enough to do any good, but hope she nailed the dog at least once. 

    I'm just curious as to what the benefit in this would be.  Animals don't seem to have that vindictive side we have and I don't think they'd understand the concept of "at least I got him a good one". (I think that's one of the reasons we like them.) I wouldn't expect many people here to feel better over two injured animals than one.

     Very sorry about the horse. Hope she will be well. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mehpenn
    The owners of the dog were very upset about what happened. They could not believe that their dog would do something like that.

    That is the heart of the problem right there. One of the largest problems that dogs face is a gross misundestanding of dogs as a species. We fail our dogs by "not believing" our dogs could be anything other than fluffy, lovey-dovey gooey social animals. The reality is our dogs are canines -, and much as we try we cannot take that away from them. They are hunters, scavengers, and predators.

    I really, really, truly feel for the situation you are in right now. I couldn't imagine dealing with what you are dealing with, it gives me the shivers to think about it. And I can understand it's very hard to think logically during a time like this. But that dog could have been any breed, to be honest. It could have been an Australian Cattle Dog, a German Shepherd, your neighbour's Husky,or a Jack Russell Terrier.

    My dogs have caught and killed a variety of little creatures. Zipper is a pro at snatching birds from out of the air. I have a lovebird in my home who I love very much, and could not possibly conceive of watching my dogs do to her what they do to wild birds. Which is precisely why I keep my Lovie safe from them, and they are never, ever, ever alone together. I know exactly what would happen in a moment of non-thinking.  They are not vicious killers. They are dogs. In their world it is 100% normal behaviour. It's not their fault we don't tend to like that side of their nature.

    The point is, lack of understanding is the key to it all. We need to stop assuming that our dogs are so innocent, and understand them, respect them, and love them, for the animal they are, not what we hope they will be.  

    I truly hope your horse will recover, both physically and mentally. It will be a long road ahead. *hugs*

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm sorry this happened.

    • Bronze

    Kim_MacMillan

    mehpenn
    The owners of the dog were very upset about what happened. They could not believe that their dog would do something like that.

    That is the heart of the problem right there. One of the largest problems that dogs face is a gross misundestanding of dogs as a species. We fail our dogs by "not believing" our dogs could be anything other than fluffy, lovey-dovey gooey social animals. The reality is our dogs are canines -, and much as we try we cannot take that away from them. They are hunters, scavengers, and predators.

    I really, really, truly feel for the situation you are in right now. I couldn't imagine dealing with what you are dealing with, it gives me the shivers to think about it. And I can understand it's very hard to think logically during a time like this. But that dog could have been any breed, to be honest. It could have been an Australian Cattle Dog, a German Shepherd, your neighbour's Husky,or a Jack Russell Terrier.

    My dogs have caught and killed a variety of little creatures. Zipper is a pro at snatching birds from out of the air. I have a lovebird in my home who I love very much, and could not possibly conceive of watching my dogs do to her what they do to wild birds. Which is precisely why I keep my Lovie safe from them, and they are never, ever, ever alone together. I know exactly what would happen in a moment of non-thinking.  They are not vicious killers. They are dogs. In their world it is 100% normal behaviour. It's not their fault we don't tend to like that side of their nature.

    The point is, lack of understanding is the key to it all. We need to stop assuming that our dogs are so innocent, and understand them, respect them, and love them, for the animal they are, not what we hope they will be.  

    I truly hope your horse will recover, both physically and mentally. It will be a long road ahead. *hugs*

     

    This is a very well thought out post.  People have forgotten that dogs are carnivores .  Carnivores kill to eat in the wild.  Dogs will kill in the right circumstances.  All dogs.  From a toy breed being curious and killing a bumble bee to, larger  dogs running down and killing sheep.  Dogs are preditors. 

    As an owner of a bull breed I feel that the owners of this pit bull have failed him miserably.  It is their job to protect their dog from from being stimulated to this behavior.  Your horse could have simply run from the dog.  And the chase was on.  Only it was deadly serious to your horse being a "prey" animal (one who is eaten in the wild).  She ran for her life.  While the dog chasing it could have started out as a game.  But the "prey drive" kicked in quickly and the situation turned ugly. 

    As a former horse owner who kept my horse at home, I have threatened to shoot dogs who I find running my horse.  The dog may only be doing what dogs do.  But I had a right to protect my livestock. 

    We as owners of dogs have the responsibility to either train to reliable off leash control or to keep our dogs on leash or in fenced containment.  This pit bull should not have been loose unsupervised.  Certainly he was under on one's control.  The people who are at complete fault in this are the owners of the pit bull.  I'm not sure paying all your Vet bills is enough penalty.  I'm sorry your AC was spineless.  I am so very sorry your horse had to pay for the dog owner's  negligence.  These are ripping injuries that will be long to heal.  I hope your horse Vet is good.  He'll have to be to pull her through.  It's going to be a long road for your horse back to health.  Again, I am so sorry you have had this happen to your horse. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    Oh I am so terribly sorry! I'm sending long distance love and healing for your p recious girl. A companion for 17 years.... :-( no words.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I find this all very sad, but there's some good discussion coming from it.  I am so very sorry that this horse was so badly injured and damaged.  I too am VERY sorry that the dog's owners just plain were not careful **enough**.

    And you know -- that's often just not a popular thing.  I am FROM "farm stock" -- and I've known MANY a cow dog, or dog who lived on a farm and/or near horses. 

    But take the idea of a dog being a "carnivore" or a "predator" one step further please.  This might be unpopular but it's true.

    When we choose a dog as a companion ... pet ... or as a worker like a farm dog.  Part of that decision has to be to be realistic about not only that dog's canine nature, but ALSO the specific things that make that breed(s) what they are. 

    I have a hound mix.  More than any dog I've ever owned there is a true separation in how her mind works when she's in a situation where she knows, beyond a doubt, that the humans ARE in charge ... and that situation where she can make the choice to let the animal fully take over.  I *know* when she's further than I can reach that the "dog" part of her brain is going to take over and she's going to try to ignore me.  She's less that way with David. 

    In particular -- when the hound part of her takes over, every thought she has is going to go straight thru her nose.  Cos she IS a hound. 

    But she also has unique physical characteristics that impact that "hound" persona.  Sawed off tiny legs be darned ... she can clear a five foot fence FROM A STAND.  Never touch it on the way over. 

    So we've had to re-organize how we deal with her, cos if left to her own devices for an instant she'd be GONE.  To do whatever the h#ll she wanted to.

    What's my point?  EVERY SINGLE DOG has to be viewed not only as faithful little Poochie we love.  But it has to be viewed with cold hard reality as to that dog's physical capabilities. If you *ever* catch yourself saying "Oh -- my dog would NEVER do that!" -- beware.  Because given the right set of circumstances a dog is a dog.  It's not a little human in a fur skin -- it's an animal and it's going to make certain choices because of that.  Those choices may be BETTER in a dog who is well trained.  And that's the aim of every trainer out there.  But if a dog is pushed in a certain way by circumstances, and by it's perception of what's happening -- including it's scent perception of fear, weakness, illness, etc. -- it's capable of simply being an "animal" and not "my sweet Poochie.

    I like pits.  I truly do.  But we had a pit mix and I saw once -- and ONLY once -- that capacity she had to make up her mind to grab onto something and NOT let go.  And it happened to be my thumb.  She didn't hurt me.  She could have ripped my hand half off -- but she merely had my thumb behind her canine and bore down JUST enough so the joint of my thumb was caught IN her mouth.  She locked her jaw and I tell you -- it took both all my husband's strength AND HIS WILL to demand she release me.  She wasn't hurting me.  Not at all.  BUT she had decided she didn't want to take a particular pill and she wasn't about to open her jaws enough for me to do that.  I never encountered that sort of will before -- and this was a dog who was particularly gentle and loving.  But I came face to face with reality that night -- she WAS a dog, and a particularly strong and determined one.

    Now -- beyond this -- some of you (Sandra Slayton and a couple of others who knew me back on the old AllPets board13-14 years ago) may have known a fella named "Gord".  He knew pitbulls -- he was the one the authorities used to call in his state when they busted a fighting ring.  He was the one tasked with evaluating the dogs that might be placeable vs. the ones who were ... not.

    It was his position -- and it's not a popular one -- that pits were a marvelous breed.  But they were BEST at one thing.  Being a companion animal to a human in a ONE DOG home.  In a one PET home. 

    Because of how they have been bred to fight, generation after generation, there is something in them that is simply a "possible" -- it may take the right combination of stimuli, the right circumstances, the right everything -- but there is always the **chance** that a pit can simply go "hot" for virtually no reason that is at all logical to a human.  it was always Gord's position that they made marvelous pets -- but they needed to be contained at all times, and they needed to be "only" pets UNLESS the humans were 100% completely committed to ensuring the safety of all by keeping the animals completely and utterly separated and NEVER be allowed to mingle unattended.

    Why?  Because they were horrid slobbering beasts just waiting to attack?

    NOT AT ALL -- But simply that given the right unique circumstances a disaster COULD happen that could be horrific.  And when you know a thing *could* happen, it's our moral responsibility as humans to make darned sure it can NOT happen. 

    AT the risk of running on a bit -- I think it goes further than just the pit bull issue -- and I guess that's part of my point here.

    We've had discussions on here previously about crating -- and I tend to always be one who advocates crating any time the humans aren't present and there are a lot of folks who don't agree with me.

    *shrug* -- that's fine.  That's where discussion comes from.

    But any time animals are left alone together -- whether they are playing or one gets its back up over some "thing" -- there IS the potential for disaster.  I've cited before that a friend of mine had two young medium-sized dogs that were left alone - they got to playing and somehow pulled a portable TV off a wall unit - the set struck one of the dogs on the way down and killed it instantly.  The other dog got hit by flying glass and died of its injuries before my friend got home.  Remote possiblity?  Maybe -- but an accident that COULD have been averted.

    So -- some folks want to leave their dogs "out" during the day and feel crating is too restrictive and not necessary.  It's simply MY point that they don't mind it and if everyone is secure in a crate then I won't come home to a horrific accident.  Lord knows -- Billy swallowed a quarter and I was right HERE.  *sigh*  But I minimize "bad" as much as possible.  That's where that "moral responsibility" comes in.

    In the instant case we have humans who were FAR too relaxed in a country setting where everyone things you "gotta" let the dogs run and "be free".  And all it takes is ONE bad day. 

    But we also have a breed here who is unbelievably strong.  The bigger bull breeds were BRED for strength.  So, when they snap, unfortunately it means that the "bad" in "bad day" is tragic.

    My hound is bred to use her nose and give chase.  A greyhound is bred to run and run and run (and can do so until its heart bursts).

     Beyond that certain traits are SO ingrained that they take on a life of their own.  A herding dog -- I'll pick particularly on a sheep herding dog -- has been bred for centuries to literally have that unique fractured concentration of a herder to keep track of 99 different sheep all at one time and mentally think ahead enough to know how it can snag the one lamb back from the cliff while pushing 3 others closer in because there's a faint smell of wolf on the wind from that direction.  But don't ask that same dog to relax and not care if you are driving in a car weaving in and out of traffic with people/bikes/cars crossing every which way -- you're likely to have a dog half crazed because he can't "herd" the traffic.  Nor do you set that "working dog" UNSUPERVISED in a room full of rowdy 2 year olds.  Shoot -- you don't even allow them to be with ONE baby unsupervised.

    AT the same time, that same herding dog will attack any living thing that it perceives is threatening to it's pack or herd or whatever it was tasked with protecting. It's what they do. 

    Bottom line - you don't put the dog in a situation ALONE where it's at odds with its own breed nature. 

    You can't ask ANY dog NOT to be it's own breed character without a LOT of training and a lot of supervision.  And we all know that there are always those unique situations where even with tons of training there can be that one distraction that just plain proves too much.

    I'm not singling pits out here -- but I do think there is - particularly in rescue circles -- a lot of optimism instead of realism.  But I also think there's a TON of assumption that they are just "bad".  Both of those mindsets are just plain wrong.

    I'm simply saying we need to respect our breed.  They are ALWAYS dogs -- but **in addition** each and every one has a particular talent that can be particularly problematic IF control is lost at the wrong time (or if there's no control to begin with).

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think a lot of times people are in such denial and spend so much time defending their breed that they do it a disservice.  I'd much rather be completely up front with someone when they ask me about chows and my chow rather than sugar coat things and have them go get one and end up with a problem that will just add to the reputation. 

    It is great to make people understand that just because a dog is a certain breed doesn't necessarily mean it will be the typical stereotype.  But, to just disregard why that reputation is there is not helping any "dangerous" breed at all. 

    I'm so sorry your horse has to go thru this.  I hope he is feeling better very soon. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am so sorry about your horse (((HUGS)))

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    The point is, lack of understanding is the key to it all. We need to stop assuming that our dogs are so innocent, and understand them, respect them, and love them, for the animal they are, not what we hope they will be.

    ^agree

    I am very sorry about your horse, and I wish her and you a speedy recovery from this situation.

    I have a large dog, 2 cats and a rabbit. The cats are allowed to correct the dog and he them. Until recently the rabbit only had interaction with the dog, my cats are fine predators and I understand this. I wanted the rabbit in, but was prepared to put him back out on the porch he use to live on should it become clear that my cats were going to "hunt" him down.

    Over the past week I have had to leave all my pets home alone for extended periods of time. The dog I was not worried about, but in the back of my head I did worry for my rabbit. My older cat ignores the bunny, but my younger cat is fascinated and has to be monitored. The bunny has places to hide that are cat proof, but there is always the chance that he would be to slow to move to miss an inquisitive paw. The bunny is a strong little character in his own way, but nothing can change the fact that he is a "prey" animal with the instincts to run and my other pets are "predators" with the instinct to chase. I honestly hope with all my heart that I can continue to monitor their natural instincts and keep everyone safe. I already know that should anything happen, I will be the responsible one and the one to take the blame. I am putting animals together in un-natural settings and asking for a harmony that might very well be only a surface co existence. I know this, and that is more than half the battle.

    In the end, the blame, or cause, does indeed belong only to the owners of the dog. He was on your property unleashed and unmonitored. That responsibility falls to them and to them alone. THEY  were charged with his safety and let him down.  I feel for you and I feel for your horse, but I have a great need in me to feel for the dog as well. Why, because not only are you trying to understand, but his world has been rocked as well. If your looking at him differently, how are they? Is he going to go from adored family member to monster? Either way you look at it, someone is hurt and suffering.

    Best wishes.

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    First, I'm so sorry about your horse!

    As a horse and pit bull owner i will agree that there have been a lot of good things already said here.

    The only thing I would add is that before pits were bred/raised as fighting dogs they were orginally used as farmer and butcher dogs to control bulls and other large livestock. That being said they have high prey drives for large livestock. IMO pit bulls should not be left loose with livestock unless they are fully trained around them.

    But all dogs are different. Luna will go straight for the horses nose if she gets the chance. She likes horse fine from a distance but when they come close she goes nuts, i don't know if she thinks she needs to protect me or what. Gotti on the other hand ignores them.

    But please, like others have said, there is a difference between dogs that go after animals and "vicious attack dogs." If anything try to understand that just because your neighbors pit bull did this to your horse does not mean he will attack you or your children.

    Good luck and please keep us updated on your horses recovery.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    mehpenn
    The owners of the dog were very upset about what happened. They could not believe that their dog would do something like that.

    That is the heart of the problem right there. One of the largest problems that dogs face is a gross misundestanding of dogs as a species. We fail our dogs by "not believing" our dogs could be anything other than fluffy, lovey-dovey gooey social animals. The reality is our dogs are canines -, and much as we try we cannot take that away from them. They are hunters, scavengers, and predators.

     I was thinking the same thing. I hear this over and over and over when there is a tragedy involving dogs. I knew people who bred llamas that lost several llamas including one baby to their Great Danes. The owners felt betrayed and could not believe their dogs "had it in them" to kill  their owner animals. The dogs paid for it with their lives but the truth is, the owners should have never allowed the dogs to have free access to the llamas to begin with. They falsely believed that because they had never seen the dogs behave in an aggressive manner that they never would.  I rescued a dog who killed one of my ferrets. It was an accident that the ferret got into her expen, as I don't trust ferrets and dogs together. The dog was an extremely docile, "squishy" dog who I had known for years and not a dog who I had ever known to show much prey drive. I don't blame her or her breed (Aussie) for what happened, she's a dog and ferrets are small, quick moving animals. I should have been more careful, the ferret slipped unnoticed out of his room when I went in.

      You should never trust that a dog won't act like a dog. No matter how sweet, friendly and good natured a dog seems they all have predatory instinct. 

      In this case, it sounds like the dog was allowed to run loose. Blame the owners for their lack of responsibility in properly confining their dog instead of blaming the dog for acting like a dog or seeing it as proof that pit bulls are dangerous. You and your horse will be in my thoughts and I truly hope she makes a full recovery.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Our horses are not aggressive towards other animals in their pasture. We have dogs, cats, kids in the pasture all the time and have never had an issue with the horses attacking them.

    Let's remember that horses are "flight" instinct creatures, not "fight".  They typically run from danger.

    I'd like to post some pics of Kelly's injuries, just so you guys will know what we're going through... I think I'll do it on the horse forum, as non-horse people may not be interested.

    • Gold Top Dog

     What a horrible thing to happen! I hope your horse recovers physically and mentally and is able to be kept comfortable during the healing process.

     

    Any dog can chase livestock..many dogs have a strong prey instinct. The pit bull was failed by his owners who didn't keep him confined. I hope the vet bills are a strong wake up call for them to keep their dog away from all livestock from now on. It's not a breed issue (I am quite certain that if I lived near livestock and he were ever out of my yard/sight..which he's never been..my yorkie would give chase) as much as an instinctual  one.

    Issues with other animals do not indicate that a dog will attack humans.  My dog is reactive to strange, loose dogs, yet is gentle as can be to all humans..even stupid ones who reach over my fenceConfused

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm sorry Callie, but pit bulls don't lock their jaws.  It may seem like that but it's not possible. The Pit has amazing jaw strength and sheer will power to not let go unless it wants to.

     

    Mehpen: I'm really sorry about your horse and the consequences that well befall the pit. I hope there isn't any lasting effects from the trauma. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I read what this dog did to your horse and I do hope that you can comfort your mare and focus your energies on her for the moment. I wanted to share two things with you, about dogs and livestock as well as pit bulls.

    First, my dog, a Great Pyrenees mix, used to want nothing more than to attach himself to horses' noses. We went through some training with him (some of the horses would have killed him), and kept him on leash or in a fence. He can now, on leash, politely sniff the noses of horses through a fence -- but I wouldn't bet money that off leash, or in a pasture, that he wouldn't attempt to chase or attack the horses. He's also never shown any sort of aggression and just a few weeks ago not only growled and showed his teeth, but was grabbing and biting another dog and not in a playful manner. It's the first time in 4 years he's behaved that way, so not all behaviors are really expected or have a huge red flag before they happen.

    Second, my uncle owns a pit bull who was involved in a fatal dog attack. She was frequently kept in a kennel with a JRT, and on Christmas day was reported to have attacked her. A person living in the house went into the pen to get the JRT and the pit bull hit her in the thigh with an open mouth, bruising and scaring her. The JRT was taken to an emergency vet with shallow, rapid breathing. She was euthanized the next day as a result of her injuries. However, the only external injuries on the JRT was a scape on her side. Most of the time, especially in an attack with intent to kill, injuries are located around the face and neck. The JRT was epileptic, and it is believed that she had a seizure which resulted in her injuries and the attack. My aunt was given the choice to decide to keep, rehome, or euth the pit bull -- she chose to keep her. Since then she has continued to live with cats, children, a female Yorkie and Yorkie pups without another incident. There are some things out there that we don't see. Some body language or illness factors that affect us differently than other animals. Sometimes there is the one freak accident, and no matter how terrible, it doesn't mean the dog itself, let alone the breed, is evil or bad.

    Again, I'm sorry about your situation. I understand if this dog makes you uncomfortable, but I urge you to be open in communication with the owners -- though perhaps not right now while emotions are running so high.