I Have GREAT dogs

I'm not condoning the dogs or defending the behavior, just trying to address some of the misconceptions about Schutzhund training. Dogs attack people all the time that have no protection training whatsoever, and every day strangers approach SchH titled dogs and are greeted with neutrality or friendliness from the dog.  What I don't like is the attitude in this thread that this should be some sort of warning or indication to the rest of us that do SchH that our dogs are a liability or a ticking time bomb.  Maybe for some people that is true but myself, I know enough about my dogs to understand what's going on in their mind when they are approached by a threat or come upon a threat.  My Schutzhund training does not change their behavior, it simply exposes the dogs for what they are, which ones have the temperament to continue and which might be a liability (or will not engage at all, ever) and need to be washed out and have a more strictly managed environment. 

We all have our own ideas of what constitutes a "good" dog and what we are willing to live with.  I personally prefer a strong dog that possesses natural aggression but has a medium to high threshold and is extremely stable in the head - a dog that inherently only engages a real threat.  I personally can't handle a dog with weak nerves such as a reactive dog or a fear biter.  Also the dog has to fit the lifestyle.  For me having a fear biter dog would be far more of a liability than simply having a SchH3 dog because he is trained for sport.  My dogs fit my lifestyle and Amanda's dogs fit hers.

FWIW I have a dog trained to SchH3 in the protection phase, and trained and titled as a Protection Alert dog and in a similar scenario he would not engage.  The dog has a higher threshold, is not protective of property (and is not being trained or encouraged to do so), and our definition of a threat is more "active", as in, someone that is in close proximity threatening to harm myself or the dog.  In all likelihood if my crates were not locked shut and locked to the frame of my van you could probably walk up and removed the dog from the crate.  He probably won't obey your commands but he won't attack you or protect the vehicle.  It's just not in his nature.

I do understand that different people will have different feelings about what is acceptable in various situations, and many people will not agree with me. And that's totally fine. I guess I will just say, for people who do want their dogs to be "guard dogs" and behave in this way, please make sure you check your local laws (first) and protect yourself and your animals from liability!

I think any dog owner should seek to do their best to understand their dog's temperament, what is his threshold, what are the triggers, how much management is necessary, etc.  Take Kenya for example, I don't do ANY form of bitework or protection work with her but because she has less nerve and can be more skittish she is a lot more work as far as managing her around people and keeping tabs on her.  Nikon I don't worry about one bit.  The other day someone knocked on the front door and walked in (a friend of Phil's I didn't know was coming) and Nikon barked at the knock and ran to greet him but I didn't get off the couch.  If it were Kenya would have had to go up there, do introductions, ask them not to touch her, find a crate or safe place for her while people are over, etc (and she's not even a biter, I just don't want her to feel uncomfortable or insecure in her own home).

Also the problem with holding some people and dogs to higher standards is that not everyone has the same standard, as evident by this thread.  I have a different standard than Amanda, and you probably have a different standard than both of us.  Who is right?  I personally hold myself and my dogs to a standard that is based mostly on the genetics of the dog, the needs and limitations of my lifestyle and our environment, and the law/liability.  Those are what I take into consideration, in that order.

Believe me there are plenty of people on this forum that don't do any competitive training with their dogs that have a far better understanding of their dogs' thresholds and triggers than a lot of people in my Schutzhund club.  In some ways I agree and wish that SchH handlers adhered to a higher standard, but the reality is that the majority of people participating are average dog owners out looking for something fun and engaging to do with their pet, not world level trainers and competitors.  Also just like there is a huge spectrum of pet dog trainers, there is the same diversity in Schutzhund trainers and helpers.  The average being people that mean well but often don't really have a clue and are often lucky that they are working genetically sound dogs.

Cita

We owe it to our dogs to keep them safe, and that includes *not* encouraging aggression towards strangers. Sometimes it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean we should encourage it.

rwbeagles

I would not want my family or my dogs being put thru that NOR at the mercy of a justice system that has proven itself again and again to lack common sense and be utterly based upon media perception at times.

I agree with both. I read a story where 2 guys actually where trying to get into a house in Vegas and one of them ended shooting one of 3 of the dogs in the head.

I know of another case where a guy was going to get into another dude's house to fight him because the dude complained about the guy's dog barking all the time. The house's owner of course felt he was in danger and knock him out right in his front door. Basically both went to jail, you would think that the house's owner should not, but according to the law, for him to act in self defense he should have warned the guy to get out of his property first and if he didnt comply (under law) he still needed to wait for the dog's owner to charge him to be considered actual self defense.

The system has a lot of gray areas and when you think you are doing everything by the book you might actually not.

I dont want to put my dog inside of that system's "gray area" and even when the guys could have been charged with trespassing, the dogs can be also charged as well.

If someone does not really want to fall in that "gray area" then the person needs to call 911, is easier to be said than done but that how it works. 

Cita

There was a lawsuit a while back where a VET sued because a dog bit him during an exam. I think the lawsuit eventually failed, but there was a very real fear that the dog was going to be euthanized. (I think it was something small and "non-dangerous" like a chihuahua, too.)

This thread was removed for review.  It's been placed back in General.

I want everyone to take a moment to consider how this thread conveys our community.  We have awesome members here, and yet this thread is appalling in many ways.

 Please remember that there are many more lurkers and guests on this board than there are regular members.  Their religion should not be the subject of disrespect and intolerance.

This thread is locked, please watch your tone in further threads.