Is it ok to spank your dog?

Cita

If dogs respond best to positive training, why shouldn't we take the same approach to people-training? Do you really think people are going to trust and be motivated to listen to someone who's being aggressive and condescending to them? "If I don't smack my dog, he thinks he has permission to continue to disobey me." Being patient and gentle in training shouldn't stop just because the target has less fur. JMHO.

Anne, if someone was truely abusing their dog I would not have posted the type of comment I did. I have *seen* legitimate abuse, and what the OP did was not it.

spiritdogs

I'm sorry, but I think that political correctness is absurd, and I think that society should treat abuse as abuse and not condone it.  Hitting an animal, especially to "train" it, is nuts and should be regarded as nuts.  The dog simply learns to fear or distrust its owner, and the owner, if we don't type "ugh" uses comments like yours to give herself permission to continue her abhorrent behavior.  JMHO

Really, Anne?  Abuse?  Abhorrent behavior?  There is real abuse done to dogs and that should be treated with disgust by society but what the OP described doesn't fit that description in my opinion.  I don't think it has a thing to do with being politically correct but everything to do with how to help people learn better ways to train.  The OP has acknowledged that her hitting her dog wasn't the right thing to do and continuing to bash her and make such exaggerated statements is counterproductive.  JMHO

JackieG

spiritdogs

I'm sorry, but I think that political correctness is absurd, and I think that society should treat abuse as abuse and not condone it.  Hitting an animal, especially to "train" it, is nuts and should be regarded as nuts.  The dog simply learns to fear or distrust its owner, and the owner, if we don't type "ugh" uses comments like yours to give herself permission to continue her abhorrent behavior.  JMHO

Really, Anne?  Abuse?  Abhorrent behavior?  There is real abuse done to dogs and that should be treated with disgust by society but what the OP described doesn't fit that description in my opinion.  I don't think it has a thing to do with being politically correct but everything to do with how to help people learn better ways to train.  The OP has acknowledged that her hitting her dog wasn't the right thing to do and continuing to bash her and make such exaggerated statements is counterproductive.  JMHO

What Jackie said.

I have to give the OP credit, she did not run away. She stayed and asked more questions, and even answered some.

Now someone explain to me how hitting someone over the head with a frying pan, instead of sitting down and explaining why it's wrong, and why you feel that way in a nice, respectable manner, is any different than what your accusing her of?

Frankly, a dog trainer, with that kind of attitude, is not someone I would want to use or even recommend. I am not asking that you lie, or even condone what I did, but if I came to you for training and how to be a better person to, and with my dog, you can bet your sweet tail that I would expect you to be respectful. Anything less and I would go somewhere else. And I would tell my friends why.

Brookcove- Sounds like you have the life! I miss living on the farm with my aunt and watching those intune BCs do chores and hang around waiting to be asked to help.

I know exactly what you mean about a dog senseing a positive mindset, My dogs really do read more then what im saying, sometimes they alert me to my mood, More excited when I am, subdued when im calm.

To OP- another good thing to do if you find yourself flustered, Stop the training or situation, Put your dog in thier crate with a chew or go sit and do something else. Come back later with a positive mindframe and try the tranining, situation again. you and your dog will get burnt out at times and its always good to have some chill time.

Cita

Do you really think people are going to trust and be motivated to listen to someone who's being aggressive and condescending to them?

Cita, it depends on the context doesn't it? The above works actually quite well for the military and has for centuries. SURE people desert and have done THAT for centuries, too..but the fact is...more stay and many LOVE it. Who knows why, perhaps because the very things you mention, make them feel that they are safe, things are going to go the way they should...and they have confidence in that above all else. In fact namby pamby or feelgood stuff might actually make them feel LESS secure.

You cannot assume ALL people are going to respond to discipline, even corporal or hands on...the same way. You just can't. We have WAY too much variation in our given temperaments...and IMO, so do dogs.

But we have choices and if being stared in the face, and told how much of a maggot you are and being physically punished by another human being does not appeal...you can opt out of it. Perhaps the difference is that if a dog, or heck even a child, feels that way...it has few choices. It is then up to the person "in charge" to be aware of said differing variations in temperament...and work WITH them.

I am that way Gina.  I always work better under pressure, always take criticism better than compliments.  I'm not really sure why, it's not that my parents are overly cold or were abusive or anything like that.  I guess there's just a "shy" side of me that doesn't really know how to take a compliment.  Tell me what I'm doing wrong (within reason) and that gives me something I can work with.  Compliments tend to just make me uncomfortable and I have to remember to be thankful and grateful so I don't come off as unappreciative or rude.  Maybe it has to do with gymnastics, which was definitely conducted in a more militant style!

But at the same time, I don't project my learning style onto my dogs.  To me each dog is a blank slate.  Training to me is more about learning what motivates the dog and what makes the dog tick then training the dog to do commands.  Kenya was my first dog and absolutely worked for praise and affirmation more than food or toys and shut down with minor corrections.

Cita

Do you really think people are going to trust and be motivated to listen to someone who's being aggressive and condescending to them?

 

Cita, it depends on the context doesn't it? The above works actually quite well for the military and has for centuries. SURE people desert and have done THAT for centuries, too..but the fact is...more stay and many LOVE it. Who knows why, perhaps because the very things you mention, make them feel that they are safe, things are going to go the way they should...and they have confidence in that above all else. In fact namby pamby or feelgood stuff might actually make them feel LESS secure.

You cannot assume ALL people are going to respond to discipline, even corporal or hands on...the same way. You just can't. We have WAY too much variation in our given temperaments...and IMO, so do dogs.

But we have choices and if being stared in the face, and told how much of a maggot you are and being physically punished by another human being does not appeal...you can opt out of it. Perhaps the difference is that if a dog, or heck even a child, feels that way...it has few choices. It is then up to the person "in charge" to be aware of said differing variations in temperament...and work WITH them.

I agree, to a degree. There is a huge difference in signing up for the military, knowing beyond a doubt your going to be demeaned and yelled at in a face to face situation, and coming to a forum to ask for directions and help. The OP has already said what she did was wrong, it was not abuse by many standards, but still wrong on the whole. The OP has stated, she will probably not do it again, admits to being frustrated and is continuing to seek help and understanding. That alone says volumes.

Slapping her down again after that shows a lack of compassion and understanding. Instead of harping on the bad with big bad words, some people need to take a step back, take a deep breath, step out of their perfect world and give real people, requesting guidance, the information they need for the new future. If they can't do that and  continue on the same vein, they lose the chance to actually make a meaningful change in someone's training style.

Look at it this way, we give dogs that bite or behave badly, second, third and forth chances, but to many people are only given one.

IMO, not a bright way to change to a more positive training future.

My post was in reply to Cita, Truley..and didn't have anything to do with the OP. Merely a discussion on the point raised...that people (as a large general group) will always respond better to postive than negative reinforcement...and I had some thoughts on that particular idea...which is why I isolated it in the form of a quote.

I actually...said nothing directly to the OP about her actions. My opinion on that is not one I am going to state since others have done better voicing my same thoughts.

I agree totally with the last posters that its best to not take your anger out on posters for being unsure on how to handle or train thier dogs. Its a good sign they are here and even better they asked for our help as a group. I like to try to understand others views and trust me I get very annoyed with people who are actually harming thier dogs physically or mentally, I lose my temper too sometimes but we must try to understand and help instead of chasing away or looking down our nose at them.

<3 this topic has left alot of information and methods for posters to read, we just have to try to be friendlier in my opinion. Thanks for the info and personal experiances all and keep it coming!!

Lies- Bug was just like Kenya, Only voice change was what she needed to be guided or stopped from any action. She was such a dream with commands. So attentive, but the 4-H trainer insisted I use the choke as everyone else, I did not and when we went to the competitions we beat the trainers daughter and everyone else in the class! If I caved and put the choke on to please the trainer I think Bug would have shut down and I would have gotten little to no relsults and our relationship would have suffered. Im glad for me and Bug the as even a little girl I listened to the dog and my gut.

 Miss you Bug, you taught me so much

BlackLabbie

Cita

If dogs respond best to positive training, why shouldn't we take the same approach to people-training? Do you really think people are going to trust and be motivated to listen to someone who's being aggressive and condescending to them? "If I don't smack my dog, he thinks he has permission to continue to disobey me." Being patient and gentle in training shouldn't stop just because the target has less fur. JMHO.

 

Anne, if someone was truely abusing their dog I would not have posted the type of comment I did. I have *seen* legitimate abuse, and what the OP did was not it.

I agree that there are varying levels of abuse, but we part ways when you say that slapping or spanking a dog is not abuse.  It's confusing and frightening to most dogs, and is not acceptable conduct.  But, then, I don't like people hitting children either, and as I recall, we've had threads on that before, too.  Amazing how many people differ on that as well. 

hayley018

Anyway after the lady left I asked my dogs to sit once again so that I, as the leader, could tell them to get up when I wanted, showing them they cant just disobey me. Anyway my lab decided to do her own thing and so I grabbed her by the collar, pushed down on her bum so she sat and tapped/spanked (really quite gently) the top of her head. I said 'NO SIT'.

I agree with the whole pack leader ideology and the fact that dogs correct each other sometimes. If we review your tactic I dont think your dog got the point whatsoever of why she was being corrected and here is why:

1.- To have a dog to perform an obedience command you can not use corrections as they will relate the correction to the command and therefore will be less likely to perform it. Corrections should be use to make the dog stop doing something that is already doing. You can not use corrections for something that the dog never actually did because a dog's brain does not work that way.

2.- You pushed down on her rear, she sat down and then you performed the correction. On her brain she actually was corrected for sitting down, do you see what i mean?

The ONLY way to have a dog to perform an obedience command every single time is trough repetition with positive reinforcement, there is simply not other way around it. If your dog didnt do it when you ask is not because you are not the leader but because you haven't practice enough.

There are way too many things owners these days think that their dogs are doing to "defy" the owner's leadership and 99% of those things are not true, believe me when I tell you that if any of your dogs one day challenge your leadership you will definitely know the difference

brookcove

EXPERIENCE and PLANNING takes the place of manhandling.

 Can I add an "Amen!" to this??  I watched a friend do it this week - she doesn't know HOW to teach her dog what she wants, so she resorts to manhandling in the absense of her own education and experience in how to handle this.  I think a lot of dog owners come from this perspective, even after owning many dogs in the past.  Not always the person's fault for not knowing what they don't know - but it CERTAINLY isn't the dog's fault for being a dog!  Dog training doesn't come as naturally to some as it does to others.