Is it ok to spank your dog?

I don't have stay at home dogs and can't remember a time that I've had to scruff them. Sheep herding - nope. I body block for that if needed. Out hiking - again no. We come across critters and so forth. Sometimes they give chase and sometimes not. I have a good "leave it" trained on them. I also have a solid off leash "here" which means get by me. Granted I feel that my dogs are an easy breed to train. They aren't stubbord or strong willed. I have had the stubborn, strong willed dog in the past and before I knew about positive training I used a choke chain and would tap her nose now and again. Once I learned about positive training though I started using it on her. I saw much better response that way

hayley018

For the record, I would use spanking with my children (if I ever have any), I was brought up in a strict english boarding school and in a strict swiss boarding school. I left school in 2004 and until then had always been punished physically. his is completely legal and certainly helped me to learn disciplin etc. I guess this is another reason I didn't think anything of it with the dogs.

I think this just goes to show that abuse begets abuse - you were punished physically, and you think it's OK for your own children & pets.

I have a dog who I literally don't leave home without. When I eat out, I sit on the patio. When I go out of town, she comes with me. This weekend, she did spend a little time sitting in the car, while I ate inside, because it was too cold to sit outside (for all involved). She was fine and happy, with that.

 

I have never scruffed or hit her to stop her from attacking wildlife, or darting into traffic. She wears a collar and leash, when we are in public. A novel concept, I know.

IrishSetterGrl

BTW, I know this is a sensitive subject - so it's great that you brought it up and asked honestly about it.

Was thinking the same thing.

I'm slightly annoyed by those here who do type the "ugh" or get overly dramatic....you're not helping anyone. Offer constructive, sound advice and it will be heard. Give attitude or force your emotions on someone and you'll chase the OP off.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

Poofpup.... your right i didnt 'beat' my dog...i spanked her lightly for misbehaving...and really i dont think it was painful etc for the dog. But i do understand now it was probably just congfusing for her from what everyone has said and it wont happen again (as long as i can control myself which i will be trying really hard to do)

Spirit dogs...im sorry i think your just rude and you certainly not helping me - someone who came looking for help. i wonder how you help others. Many would be discouraged and simple leave the forum. Lets hope they too can ignore your rudeness and try to continue to take positive criticism and advise from the others who are offering that

thanks for all the help guys

My dogs are working dogs, We do removals. They are breed for thier working ability, drive, staying ability and intelligence. We work off lead and they are VERY reliable. Like I said rarely i scruff and nothing bad has come from it, no fearful dogs, no issues with recalls or our bond. I use collars and leashes but only near traffic or if i choose to walk in populated areas.

 I of course dont pull them off wildlife because the only wildlife they put thier mouth on is our removals animals. I have grabbed scruff when my young dog showed intensity toward a "stray" cat, he might of heeded my "leave it" (which they solidly know now) im not risking someones cat, it ws loose but that doesnt mean its not someones lost pet. I scruffed he sat, we moved on, he was young hes fine with cats now. Im sure it would have pleased alot more people if I just took the chance and didnt scruff but Im not training my dogs to please other people. Im training my dogs for thier happiness and mine.

Also I could have grabbed his collar to make sure he put on the breaks but i dont want him having pressure like that put on his trach, thats why if Im walking in public they have thier harnesses on, no chance of pressure on neck.

 When we kayak I will pull them up out of water by thier scruff then scoop under thier belly to get them back in the kayak with me after they swim. They do fine then too, they know whta im doing, they understand im lifting them back in when they ask, when I grabbed thier scruff in a scenario where I was stopping them, they stopped and understood I needed thier attention to sit or leave it or whatever was needed.

Crazy concept but my dogs seem to read me very well, I dont stick to any methods, rules or sesitivities of other people. I only take in my dogs needs, sensitivites and they pick up on everything and are so reliable in many situations, they know the must know commands and tricks. Bug never was scruffed or tapped, I would change my tone and got the response I needed. In 4H I got in trouble cause I would not put the choke chain on her, I knew her and all she needed was a tone change. I have used chokes and have nothing against them when used by people who know how, but my dog did not need it and I knew it. I do what makes my dog happy and whatever way they learn comfortably. My drivey, intense terriers are not scarred by a tap and if they showed adverse signs to a tap I darn well would know and wouldnt ever repeat that on the dog. Actual working dogs may be novel to some but they are not to me and I love thier drive but I harness theri drive to not harm nonquarry animals by reliably training them.

Jennie c d I don't know what you meant by your comments about wearing a leash in public places... However Just to clarify this happened at a off leash dog park. The only reason I didn't want them to go by the jack russel was because it Was old and my lab pup is full on.

I wanted to add I am not a professional, Ive had no classes. I learned from watching my aunt, researching and comparing other methods but I learned 85% of what I know from watching my dogs listening as I train tthem to see what they feel or think of what im doing or asking of them. Ive made mistakes, ive learned and havent repeated them. Im still learning and dont force a method on my dogs to make sure the people are happy, I do what has them the dogs learn comfortably and safely.

Like I said good for you for your method if you get safe, happy results from both ends of the leash :)

Hayley. Pay attention to your dog, research dog stress signals, watch videos of dog behaviour, look around the dog park and take in the language between the dogs. Keep on with spending time with your dogs, they love you for it. You will make mistakes and be off in timing but thats okay we all start somewhere. While you train and try methods take in your dogs demenor, if they are stressed or uncomfortable then what your doing is not the way to go, and if the problem is not improving then its not the way to go. Stay mentally positive and envision the dog doing what your asking and try to be VERY patient and understanding.

Dont be discouraged by rude people who refuse to understand your situation and thought process. Train you dog, never give up on your dog, protect your dog and enjoy your time together, <3

Hayley, I think Jennie's comment was addressing the one about stay at home dogs. She was merely stating that you don't have to manhandle your dog in order for it to be well behaved in public.

Proofpup, the OP has already admitted that she may not have used the best course of action in training when she chose to spank her dog. That means she is listening and learning from those that have offered advice and experience.(for which I commend her) Some of that advice came from a very well respected professional trainer on this board. There is no reason for anyone to "Go It Alone" when training a dog. The people here are a fountain of knowledge in most things "Dog" and we are willing to share with those that wish to learn. That's why we are here, and why, I'm sure, the OP joined the board.

That is why I am here too, To hear other people experiances and training methods. I did not say one should train thier dogs with closed eyes and mind. Where did I state that? I just shared my experiances and why I have happy dogs who can accompany me anywhere, but didnt say to replicate what I do, anyone else does or "go alone"

 

ETA- Never said to ignore anyone either, i think its best to take into account what many people say, research, watch different dogs in different scenarios, different trainers, different methods and do what makes you and your dog feel comfortable.

Some of you remember that I have working dogs (currently mostly out of work as I've had to reduce my flock). In fifteen years I've seen people who train these dogs who I was fairly sure beat their dogs FOR REAL - not hitting or CMing but using a stick until the dog was visibly, sometimes permanently, injured. I've seen people who trained dogs to the highest level, hardly raising their voice to them, ever. Sometimes they are the exact same person.

My point in saying this is that you cannot go by the "happiness" of the dog in judging the effectiveness or humaneness of a method. I've seen a dog still bleeding from a beating, perform miracles on sheep half a mile away, then recall like a bullet with his head up and his tail wagging in a circle like an egg beater.

This was MANY years ago, when I first started, when a lot of the top handlers were kind of clueless about dogs and livestock herding was a lot of "git 'er done" at the expense of the dogs.

In the UK, where they have been training sheepdogs for hundreds of years, handlers have much larger toolkits to address issues that we were so quick to solve with the stick. EXPERIENCE and PLANNING takes the place of manhandling. Fortunately we have been benefiting from trainers that have been coming over to instruct, judge, and even settle here permanently. Books, then videos, then web sites, and now direct contact through Facebook and Twitter and the like, lets us talk to those overseas like old friends, exchange ideas, reduce the cultural divide - the biggest one of which is still the stick, I've noticed.

When we are settled, it's my hope to rebuild my flock enough to experiment with training my young dog with a minimum of corrections. I started him this way successfully and he is now working away from home, about 50 yards from me, taking my direction extremely well without requiring anything more than a "firmer" voice. I can walk him off leash anywhere and he will listen - I've never laid a hand on him. He has a recall so speedy that I have to brace myself if I forget and sing out the command in TOO happy a voice - he'll knock me down! Most of the time I just softly say, "Sam."

I also have three Maremmas (kind of like Great Pyrenees) that can walk off leash outside a fence and recall on command. Well, two, as one went a week ago to a new home. I believe that is a much greater feat than training a hundred Border Collies to come when called!

I dare you to smack one of those big bears. Actually, they'd kind of like it. I do it all the time, for fun. I never, ever touched them - I had to threaten a few times when they were young and did silly stuff like try to walk off with a mama's lamb (overprotection instinct), but I had to be ready for the consequences - they were sure to fight back!

I think anytime I have to resort to something like that it's a failure on my part. I don't dwell on it but I do try to rethink it - how can I set it up better next time?

My dogs know I'm their "leader" as much as CM would desire, they are more obedient and calm in public than the vast majority of dogs I've seen from all walks of life, and all of them that I've had from pups, have been trained with a minimum of aversives - even the working dogs.

Nice post, I love watching the herding breeds do thier job. I too use very little physicle touch and have really well behaved dogs. I have seen some people BEAT their dog and people harm thier dog under the name of "training". Clicker traning is very fun for me and my dogs. Do you use a clicker at all Brookcove? If you do, is it useful in herding?

There are such drastic types of people you se while at trials and competitions. When i was little I went and watched my aunt do herding trials and obediance trails, when I was 10 to 16 I did my own obediance and agility with Bug then 17yrs to 20 I went to agility and flyball with Proof and Kuniva, now I do terrier work. The worst I saw were th people who only went to win the events, not to learn and have fun with thier dogs. They treated the dogs as tools. was sad.

I've used the clicker in a literal sense but c/t isn't useful in stockdog training. Instead, one can "mark" desired results by attempting to set up the situation so that the dog will feel the least amount of pressure when he (I use he because all my herding dogs happen to be males) is in the right place/right attitude. This doesn't always work but one can still gently talk a dog through to to the right place as a second best way to let them know that's what you want. I have one dog who is deaf and the first method is absolutely essential, which has improved my ability to set it up for my youngest dog (or realize that I cannot). He can sense a positive attitude but I can't really mark a crucial moment of needed encouragement if his head is down in a corner or behind the sheep, or it's dark or rainy. He's not a "point and shoot" dog unfortunately - he needs careful handling, so I have to fall back in those situations, on preventative measures: frequent downs, very short movements, keeping everything extremely slow. This takes away a lot of his "leverage" with regard to the sheep, however, so it gets frustrating quickly for him. Needless to say, he only is used when the chores are short or very simple in nature. Gus is the front Border Collie in the picture below in my signature.

BlackLabbie

IrishSetterGrl

BTW, I know this is a sensitive subject - so it's great that you brought it up and asked honestly about it.

Was thinking the same thing.

I'm slightly annoyed by those here who do type the "ugh" or get overly dramatic....you're not helping anyone. Offer constructive, sound advice and it will be heard. Give attitude or force your emotions on someone and you'll chase the OP off.

You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

 

I'm sorry, but I think that political correctness is absurd, and I think that society should treat abuse as abuse and not condone it.  Hitting an animal, especially to "train" it, is nuts and should be regarded as nuts.  The dog simply learns to fear or distrust its owner, and the owner, if we don't type "ugh" uses comments like yours to give herself permission to continue her abhorrent behavior.  JMHO