Dog Carting

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dog Carting

    I'm new here and I mentioned in the Introduction forum that we cart with our Bouvier des Flandres. A couple of people were interested in more information on this and I said I'd post a bit about what we do with our dogs.  I don't know if this is the correct forum but it doesn't really fit in the training forum and it's not specific to our breed, so hopefully this forum isn't the wrong place for it.


    Right now we have 6 Bouvier des Flandres, a breed that was originally Belgium cattle herding and all around work dogs. Used for just about anything that needed done, from guarding the cattle to pulling the milk wagon to town, to pulling artillary and gurneys during WWI and WWII, to being couriers carring messages and ammunitions to the soldiers. They were taught to pull wounded off the battle field (although the Belgiums or French taught them to leave the German wounded behind while the other pulled any wounded off).

    The dogs are great herders, from cattle to sheep to ducks to kids and even the occasional cat or two (although the cats will say they weren't being herded, they were going that way anyway).  Big Smile

    lolThe Bouvier also is good at rescue, tracking, sniffing out all kinds of things and service work. They aren't used a lot like this though because they are long haired and double coated, so do have come with a grooming requirements that most agencies that use service and working dogs don't want to deal with. But they are naturals in all of these. They are very intellegent and have the ability to reason (a lot of dogs don't) and are bite inhibitated... which means if having to protect their people, they will try everything they can before they restort to biting. We've seen where they litterly will knock someone down and sit on them... of course if you saw their mouth full of teeth inches away from your face, you would lay very very still. Big Smile


    Of course like most breeds, you have good ones and there are not so good ones. We've been very blessed to have some of the best of the breed in the 17 years we've had Bouviers.

    Here is one of the things we like doing with our Bouviers (and they like it as well):

    3 Bouviers and Cart
     

     

    This is only one of several carts we have. We have a 4 wheel wagon, a mushing training cart, a couple of different 2 wheel carts, this carriage, a competition cart and a sulky type cart, and two scooters (one is a all terrain ATV type with big tires that takes two dogs to pull and one is a small bicycle type that one dog can pull very fast and two make it fly). We've been doing carting for a lot of years, although we lost our main lead dogs a while back and a couple of others are 13 now and don't pull any more.

    We got involved in carting since this was one of the things our breed was used for from the beginning. And since the Bouvier is a dog that needs a job to keep them from getting bored and finding things themselves to do (and you don't want a bored Bouvier Big Smilelol), and it was easier (and cheaper) than finding them a herd of cattle to herd, we started carting.

    At first it was just a small sulky type cart that was basically two wheels, a seat and two shafts. We used that for awhile and then my wife got the carriage in the picture above. It helped that the guy that makes them leaves in Portland near us. Then we started branching out. I bought a mushing rig and the off road ATV class scooter. She got the smaller scooter, then a wagon, sulky (a bigger one) and the competition cart. The competition cart is used mostly by some of the other breeds (Burmese Mt. dogs, Rotties, etc.) but can be used by any breed. In competition your dog has to demonstrate the ability to maneuver by voice command around a set up field. There are different levels of competition from very beginning up to very advanced. Some have to carry a certain amount of weight (based on the dog) in their cart. There are AKC titles for some breeds and the Bouvier was only recently recognized by the AKC to be able to get titles based on carting. Taking so long was very narrow minded by the AKC since the Bouvier has traditionally been a carting dog.

    To start carting is pretty easy, although you want to start out right the first time so your dog has a positive (at least not a negative) experience. Most people start out with teaching them the commands for going right, left, forward, stop and even backup, faster, slower, move right or left (for passing or being passed like on trails) and others. They also are taught to stand correctly so the harness can be put on and taken off and whatever they are pulling is hooked up.

    After learning a few basic commands (or while teaching commands) you start putting a harness on so they can get use to it. There are a bunch of different types of harnesses too, depending on what kind of carting you are doing and having the right one can make a big difference. Then you add traces (lines that come back from the harness like reins with horses) and get them use to something behind them. You can also add something for them to pull, like a milk carton, a piece of 4x4, PVC pipe, etc., just to get them use to it. Some are very skittish with having something right behind them, so going slowly with lots of praise and treats can really help. With some dogs, they don't seem to mind at all. What we usually do with new dogs is have someone pull the cart behind the dog for awhile without hooking it up. That way they get use to something bigger right behind them. When they finally get hooked up, you want to take it slowly at first (depending on the dog of course) again with lots of praise and treats. We like to hook up one of our trained dogs with a new dog. Dogs seem to learn faster when they have a coach showing them the ropes.

    All of this could take a few days to a few weeks, depending on the dog and your commitment to it. Our dogs go nuts when they see the harnesses come out because it's something they really like to do... at least they know they are going to get out and have fun at least. One thing that is important for young dogs. You don't want to have them start pulling to soon. Most dogs take between a year and two years before their bones and joints have matured enough to pull any amount of weight. That doesn't mean young dogs can't be taught the commands or learn to wear a harness. We have a 19 month old Bouvier that regularly wears a harness and pulls lines behind him. Of course he's been wearing a service dog harness or vest for almost a year as part of his service dog training, so he is use to wearing something. He just got his own pack the other day so he can start learning to wear one of those and carry some of his own stuff (poop bags, water, treats, etc.). The other thing about dogs, they are not like horses or mules. They are not weight carrying animals, although they can carry some weight, you have to be careful that it is up on their front shoulders and doesn't weight too much. I think the standard is no more than 25% of their weight, but I'm not positive about that. They can pull a lot, because they are using their body and legs, so that's different than actually carrying something. But you also want to make sure that any shafts do not bear down on the dog (like when you get in and out of a two wheel cart). The shafts should go along the side of the dog and not on top to reduce the chance of bearing down on their backs.

    If there are any Burmese Mountain dog clubs in your area, you can probably find out when they are having a carting trail or demonstration and go watch.

    Here are some more pictures. This is a competition cart that a woman had at a carting session my wife gave...

    Competition Cart

     

    Here are our sulky, competition cart (without the sides on it), our small scooter and the other person's cart.

    Assorted Carts

     

    This is the mushing rig we have with 3 of our Bouviers on the gang line. The Bouvier in the lead made a great lead dog. The problem was she was also a ground tracker. So when ever we went out she would take off at a fast run with her nose to the ground following every twist and turn of what ever trail she was following. She didn't know how to take a straight line so we had to move her back to wheel dog and move one of the others up.  Big Smile

    Mushing Rig

     

    This is the big scooter I bought. This woman is trying it out with one of her 3 GSP's. Boy did they love to run and pull. She had this scooter just flying around the parking lot.

    Scooter and GSP

     

    This is the cart that the woman above normally has her 3 GSP's pull. It's called a Lynx Cart

    Lynx Cart

     

    It's very light and manuverable, which makes it good for smaller dogs...

     

    Sand Lynx

    Here are some more of the Graham Carriage cart, built by Bob Graham in Portland, Oregon...

     

    Graham Carriage

     

    My wife giving a demonstration and talk on carting for Bouviers...

     

      

    Some friends trying the cart out along the Portland Riverfront (their dog is the one on the left)...

     

    Carting on Riverfront

     

    Well, that's some of the fun we have with our dogs.  Not only can carting be fun, but it can be healthy for the dogs and humans.  

     

    Mike 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for sharing these pictures and the info on carting and your breed. :)  I love, love, love the scooter that's being pulled by the GSP.  What a great array of carts! 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Welcome!  I agree with Jackie, that scooter is awesome.  The pics are wonderful!

    • Gold Top Dog
    Thanks so much for the explosion of info on carting. The dogs look so happy and I'm sure everyone must really enjoy the fun that comes with this. I really liked reading and seeing the pictures you posted.
    • Gold Top Dog

     Great post and I love the pictures, especially the first one. Very good looking Bouvs :)

     Carting is something I have wanted to do with my dogs but haven't had a chance to try yet. I have Belgian Sheepdogs and carting was also something they were historically used for. 

     When carting with people in a sulky or carriage type cart, do you usually have a person guiding the dogs?

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    I love, love, love the scooter that's being pulled by the GSP. 

     

    Me too! But I would totally be wearing a helmet. Geeked

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks, everyone.

     AgileGSD, it depends. We don't usually have a leash on our dogs if they are all trained unless we are carting around a lot of crowds, traffic or downtown. The pictures here with one of the dogs on a leash are of dogs that have never carted before and this is their first try at it.  Their owner keeps the leash on them to help guide the dog and also be close to praise and comfort the dog since this is all new to them.

     When we first started, we use to walk along side our dogs and then my wife started riding in the carriage. I was always taking pictures so I would run around to get in front or off to the side. Until they got better trained, they kept wanting to follow me and I couldn't get far enough away to take good pictures. Big Smile

    There are a lot of people that cart with carts that you don't ride in. The carts are used to hual stuff or for show (like in parades).  A lot of times when we went to dog shows, events or other activities, we'd remove the seat of the carriage above and put all of our dog stuff, water, food, X-pens, etc., in it and have one or more of the dogs pull it out to where we were going.  We use to be the envey of a lot of people at these places because they either had to lug everything themselves or try to get their crate dollies to roll over grass, dirt and gravel. Big Smile  And for hualing several hundred pounds of dog food, a load of wood, a bunch of jugs of water, etc., it sure is easier to let the dogs do the work. And it's a lot of fun with older people and kids to give them rides... even the middle age adults get a kick out of it.  Big Smile

    The two wheel carts take a bit to get use to the balance. A lot of pictures I have, the people riding for the first time look tense. That's because they think the cart is going to tip forward or backwards, but that's usually not the case as the seat can be moved forward or backwards to balance.  One thing we like about the black carriage, it's designed so that the shafts can not come down on the dogs back or pull down with pressure on them.  The base of the cart will hit the ground first, stopping downward movement.  This is a very big safety concern with carting with dogs. There are some carts and sulkies out there that are not designed very well and have the potential for hitting the dogs back with the shaft or weighting down their back. 

    For hauling things though, a wagon is the best since it has the 4 wheels.  A lot of people take a regular kids wagon or one of the big green garden wagons and add shafts to it so their dog can pull it. For shafts you can use PVC or electrical conduit.  Conduit can be bent into a curve shape to fit the dog better than PVC can, but PVC is more flexable. For just show type carting, PVC works fine. For hauling things around, then the conduit is stronger.  You can also by shaft kits for most wagons. They replace the wagon toungue and have places to connect them to the dogs harness.

    Here is a picture of the harness we use most of the time for the two wheel and 4 wheel carting:

     Harness
     

     You can see that it has a good padded cross piece that goes across the dog's chest and plenty of D-rings to connect to.  We've used the top one when we've played around with tracking. It lets us keep a long leash on the dog but doesn't hinder them or choke them when they are on the run like a collar would.

    I don't know if I have a good picture of our fright hauler and X-back harnesses we use for the scooters and mushing rig. I'll have to look. If not I can take some if there is an interest in seeing what they look like.  You can also google for dog harnesses as well.

     Mike

    • Gold Top Dog

    Here is a picture of Sam, our first trained carting dog. You can tell he's a little mixed up about the term "Carting Dog".  Big Smile

    Sam Carting 

     

     

    Talk about speed, the people that ran their Huskies with these little scooters just flew down the trails.  We didn't even try to keep up.  A Bouvier will pull you up the side of a mountain, but they will do it at their own speed. Plus we were using our big scooter (this was before we got one of the smaller ones) and even with two dogs pulling it, it was heavier than these little ones. Unfortuanately they took off before I could get my camera gear out and get pictures of them on them and we left before they got back from the 3 miles they were running their dogs so I could get pictures of them coming back.

     

    Scooters 

    Mike 

    • Gold Top Dog
    Carting sounds pretty much the same as sledding, though obviously with wheels. I have always wanted to get a wagon or cart or some sort to pull the kids in, or whatever. I would have to walk with my dogs though, as Huskies will also pull you at their own pace, just that their own pace is Full Speed Ahead. Yup, pick a point on the horizon and get there as fast as you can. With practice and lots of work they learn to pace themselves, but my dog's don't get harnessed enough for that.

    I have X-backs and another set that looks similar to the harness you posted, though it only has one D-ring. Now I'm really wishing it had more. There is a piece that comes down between the front legs from the chest piece as well. I think they are called distance harnesses and work better for skijorring because when you hook to a regular x-back the tail end pulls up putting pressure on the wrong spots. Because the distance harness ends just behind the shoulder blades, this is a non issue. Its not good for sledding though because the lines would drag across the back on one side or the other. Oh ya, and Crusher's xback is a wheeldog harness, because he's a really long dog and a normal harness ends before his hips.

    Do you have any pics of the Sulky in action? And I'm going to have to look for one of the four wheeled scooters. Its got a freakin steering wheel! How cool is that!

    I also love how your dogs all match. Hehe. Its always been a secret pet peeve of mine, that my dogs are so different. They don't look right hooked up side by side, so I usually give Crusher more line, or vice versa if I want to go faster. With Crusher in wheel, it ups the anti between the two dogs. He does not like to be behind.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Jezabel, I lived a number of years in Alaska and my folks raised Huskies for a lot of years, so I know what you mean. Big Smile

    It is really handy having multiple D-rings. It makes it easier to match the harness to different shafts, traces and leashes depending on what it's being used for.  

     
    I looked and I can't find any pictures of the sulky being used. I know I have some but I think they are way back from my film days and I may not have the digitized.  I'll see if I can get some of the one we have with a dog or two hitched up to it.  I need to get some of it and our wagon and maybe the small scooter, although with the scooter we need someone that will get pulled on it while I take pictures. I've thought about putting on a helmet cam so I can get video while carting, but I've not done that yet.

     
    We have had dogs that pull different and will do the same thing.  We've also used a slower dog to hold back a dog that wants to go faster than we want and also help get the slower dog to pick up speed a bit.

    I wish I had a good picture of when we had 5 Bouviers hitched in front of the black carriage above. That was really neat looking. But I took the picture a long time ago with film in the park and my camera set it's exposure on the lighted areas that the sun was shining on and the cart was in the shadow.  We've never had 5 more dogs since that we could hook up that would also pull together. I've taken a lot of pictures over the years that I wish had come out better and that's one of them.  We have 6 Bouviers but 2 of them are over 13 years old and one is only 19 months old (to young to be pulling yet although he could still be hitched up).  I really should try for another group shot in the back yard of all of them hitched up to the carriage or on a gang line in front of the scooter. Big Smile

     Mike
     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am so thrilled to have an experienced cart person to join us!  I love love love all the pics.  I had a Rottie that would have just loved carting but we lost him at a young age.   I have seen that BMD's are good for carting but I think it's probably best to start the training much younger than our 4-5 yr old Hot Shot.  He would probably love the job but we got him when he was 3 and it took us about a year just to get him calm and not afraid of everything.    I will look forward to more of your pictures and stories.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Its never too late, as long as you start slow and light. And carting(or any harnesswork) at least in my experience lends a dog confidence. Crusher for instance is very reactive on leash. I have to work hard to handle him, and distract him so he doesn't stress out and attack other dogs when he's out for plain walks. But when he's in a harness, other dogs just don't matter to him. He gets that Workin Dawg attitude goin on and the rest of the world ceases to exist. The run is all that matters.

    My friend started her Poodle/springer cross when she was 8. And Jesse had HD, which Jen managed with exercise, quite well, I might add. Jesse never pulled anything heavy and never went too fast, but she loved the work. She was the only dog that ever stood still for her harness, though to be fair, she was the only non husky of the group and I've yet to see a husky stand still for much of anything...lol.

    So Mike, do your dogs have names? 6 dogs on a gangline is a bit much for me. 2 dogs in a fan are quite enough, but then I'm not that good at skiing. Maybe if I had a cart with a seatbelt, a rollcage and a good helmet, plus dogs that were infallible with their commands I might consider 6...hehe. Maybe.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Jezabel is right, Shadowsgin, age isn't as important once they are over about 2 years old.  We had a Bouvier we got as a rescue dog when she was something over 4 and started carting her to help her firm up her hips and slim her down. She took to it like a duck to water and had the Haa/Gee comands down in now time.  Here is an picture I took of her a long time ago...

    Cart 

     

    That's Mona on the right and Sam on the left. 

     

    And Jezabel is also right about confidence. For some dogs, there is nothing like having a "real job" to do to give them confidence.  

     

    Jezabel, yes, they have names... "Hey you!, Yes you in the dog suit."  And when cookies are being passed out, they all come to the same name as the one being called. Big Smile

     On the top picture of the 3 in the carriage, that is Caprice, Sam and Echo (R-L). Sam is the pappa dog with Caprice being from our first litter and Echo being from a litter 3 years later.

     The three pulling the red mushing rig, that is Caprice as lead dog (she was a ground tracker and we had to move her to Wheel dog because she couldn't go a straight line
    worth anything).  Wheel dogs are Dusty (L) and Echo (R). Dusty was our air scenter. When we had to two out, Caprice would have her nose plaster to the ground and Dusty would have her's up in the air. They both were excellent trackers.  We lost Caprice a year ago but still have Dusty at 13 years of age and she can still track by smell better than the younger dogs.

     

    The picture of the 2 pulling the carriage with the woman sitting in it is Echo and Sam again. The dog the man is holding on leash was trying out carting for the first time. She is the Magnificant Red, also from the first litter of ours. She went on to be ranked #2 in the country in agility with I think had every title available in agility from AKC and the other agility organizations.  She was still breaking records and blowing away the competition when she was over 10 years old.

     

    Our other dog names are Rose, Dyna, Frank (Frank is the great grandson of Sam) and Wagner (Wagner is from the litter we had Feb 4, 2009 from Frank and Dyna).  Rose and Dusty are the last two left from our first 9 pup litter over 13 years ago. Echo is from our 4 pup litter over 10 years ago.  I've got a bunch of pictures of Dyna, Frank and Wagner that I've not posted yet... but I plan to. Wink

     

    Mike

    • Silver
    I use this type http://www.digglerstore.com/scooters_dog_home.html They are pretty inexpensive and my two dogs do very well. I bought it when mine were 3 and 5 years old they seem to learn pretty quickly and love to run full speed. I usually have to slow them down because I am 55 years old and at full speed it can get scary. They love to pull and boy does it tire them out. They have a dual lead and even though one is 70 pounds and the other 45 pounds my little one keeps up the pace. It took about a month to teach right ,left, mush, whoa and on by. Any 2 dogs will pull this you don't have to worry about the breed.
    • Gold Top Dog

     Yep, we got one of those as well. They are light, agile, fast and fun for most dogs. The only think I don't like about it is that it does not have a kick stand. I think it must be the old bicylest and motorcycles in me, but I just  hate laying it on the ground to park it. Big Smile

    Mike