flex your knowledge here!!

First off, you don't really want the older dog to be alpha.  You want to be the alpha.  You can allow your older dog to be somewhat more nt than the others...but that doesn't mean alpha. 

How many dogs do you have now?  Just the one?  You also said you

i just feel i screwed him over when he is entirely capeable.

  how did you do that?  Where is your dog in the pack order now? 

I have never heard of placing dogs in an order you decide. Most packs decide for themselfs who is higher up in there pack, You being the alpha. The puppy will grow and find its place in the pack. There really is no need to rearrange any order. I mean how do you even know what behavor this pup is going to have untill you get it?

oh for the love of god we are totally missing the point here,
 
i screwed my older dog over by feeding him last out of circumstancial convenience, i just wanted to get him back into the caddle and THEN let the chips fall where they may ...
 
i thought that my being the alpha of the pack went without saying, but apparently not. i meant between the dogs ...
 
i have two, they are confused. the pup is 6 months old and a GSD, the other is 4 and a mountain feist/terrier mix. the older one should be the alpha OF THE TWO DOGS, NOT ME, because he is fearless and is built like a tank. i have also started to see my 4 year-old starting to "train" the pup, the pup was listening more attentively as he watched my older dog be jonny-on-the-spot with my commands. but then i let myself go, didn't pay attention to what they were up to because of crap at work, fed them whenever, left them unattended, etc. bad move.
 
all i wanted was a few nice tools others have used to put the pack in it's place to maybe try something different this time to mix things up a bit.

Sorry, I think I'm even more confused now [&o]
Hopefuly someone here can help you.

posts meant to be left to those who have something to add to training a pup with no structure and an adult dog who had been undermined. this threat is a sick metaphor for this whole thing.
 
this problem has been largely resolved. all it was entailing was how to get back on track after letting all the hard work go. as i started over i just wondered what other's do with training a new pup while including a resident adult dog.
 
was that simple enough? or still confused?

I would suggest you will have very little success establishing your older dog as alpha if he is not an alpha dog to begin with.  You can easily teach civility and inhibit pushy, aggressive behavior, but for the most part, a beta dog is a beta dog.
The nothing in life is free program will help establish the human dog hierarchy.  The next suggestion is all day every day training.  Set aside a couple of minutes here a couple of minutes there, and have a set PLAN of training.  Working on name recognition, basic position commands and recalls should be the focus.   When ever there is a distraction or rumbling between dogs, make the aggressor focus on you and do puppy push ups.  Remove the dog of the location of the incident (doesnt have to be really far, 6 feet will often do).  Do a number of position commands (Sit, stand, sit, down, sit, stand).  Then reward and release.
Training one dog at a time, while the other dog is restricted out of sight (then slowly work up until the dogs are in sight of each other while working) is another strategy.
 
Tiring the puppy out is another strategy to work on.  HOWEVER you need to be very careful about the type of activity you select to do this.  Play with a ball in the backyard (especially the two toy game) is better than jogging, etc.  Growth plates in bones have to be protected as do joints (excessive exercise during growth periods in puppyhood can seriously impact skeletal soundness as the dog ages).
 
You may want to read Carol Lea Benjamin  Surviving Your Dogs Adolescence

hey thanks mrv, good post.

Im a bit surprised you got any help to be honest, that was nice of MRV.

I guess that I'm not quite understanding why you would want to impose YOUR version of pack order?  The dogs will settle that between themselves.

ORIGINAL: loveukaykay

Im a bit surprised you got any help to be honest, that was nice of MRV.

 
Ditto
 
Just like you can't impose your ideas of pack dynamics on a pair of dogs beyond establishing yourself as leader and keeping them from hurting each other, you don't get to come into a public forum and begin imposing your ideas of forum dynamics on the members.  For future reference, keeping a rude tone out of your posts will go a lot further in your quest to get people to spend some of their valuable time providing you with information and advice for free. 

I agree Glenda, the dogs will figure things out soon enough.

I personally don't concentrate too much on which dog is alpha - as far as enforcing it goes. I think when one attempts to enforce a dog to be alpha that is not really the alpha, then things become stressed, and potential for more difficulty.

IMO, and by watching my pack of five, it appears that alpha is a fluid concept for the dogs. I have found as long as they see ME as alpha (and giver and controller of all things great and exciting), then things run smoothly - pretty much regardless of their statuses - simply because I am in charge! If I start to slip and let them take some control, then my little beta dog and status seeker start having troubles with each other. I don't sweat the small stuff, I expect my dogs to be well behaved, but I let them be dogs.

First I think one must assess what problems they think they are having due to pack order things. Then one must decide what is important to the dog, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes the alpha of the pack is the more unassuming, quiet, less powerful dog. It is possible that by trying to arrange pack status yourself you may upset the naturally occuring social order, in my opinion.

I *personally* don't worry about whose bowl I put down first or even fifth. I choose who gets what when - and they do sit for their food, sit and wait to be released from their crates. I control the food, but it doesn't matter much who gets fed first at my house - this seems to be a non-issue for them. They all get fed in their crates, and I randomly give them their bowls. I keep all toys but bones for chewing, and get them down at my discretion - and take them back when I decide we've played enough. The two small dogs and June are allowed on my lap at my invitation, but Bree and Ginger never are - they become too big for their britches if they get lap priveleges.

With two dogs I saw very little by way of pack dynamics really. Social ranking didn't really come into play much for my dogs until dog #3. If I'm being fair, consistent, and a benevolent leader, I don't sweat the details too much. Then again, with five dogs that's a lot of details!

ORIGINAL: mptopo01    oh for the love of god we are totally missing the point here,...

i thought that my being the alpha of the pack went without saying, but apparently not. i meant between the dogs ...

 
It is easy to miss the point when you start off stating this:
 

  i need to re-establish myself as number one, although i know the basics i want to hear from you guys

 
You're whistling a different tune mid-thread, and you wonder how people can miss the point?
 
I agree with Glenda.  The dogs will work it out themselves, let them have civil war if need be, they will figure it out without your help.  For example, when my field setter Zoey came into the family and had come of age, the elder and wiser 13 year old 10 pound Yorkie had made it perfectly clear, no teeth and all, he aint taking no flack
and no BS from no sporting dog, period!
 
CC.