A Serious Situation, Thoughts Needed

    • Gold Top Dog

    Poor pup Sad

    Thank you for taking him in, and at least giving him a chance.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Poor little guy.  Thank you Kim for taking him in and for giving him a chance.

    No the people couldn't know, but it's too bad that they didn't pay more attention sooner to his signals and maybe seek help.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    Once is an accident, twice is a trend.  I had a lab-Mystic- who left teeth marks on  my daughters face.  Once.  While getting her face stitched, I had time to figure out what had happened, and realized it was an accident.  Mystic had been raised in a childless home and daughter thought he was a big teddy bear.  She startled Mystic while he was sleeping, and when he swung his head to see what was going on, his teeth hit her face.  He was immediately contrite.  I worked on eliminating that particular response from the dog and that behavior from the daughter. 

    This is a repeat behavior from a dog that is fearful.  The parents should have taken some action after the first bite-separation or rehoming or a behaviorist.

    I hope you can work this out with the dog.  I imagine he is in shock over the way his life has changed.  The dog did the biting, and will pay the price. Hopefully, you can find a childless home for the dog.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jewlieee
    that fear sounds pretty extreme.

     

    i was thinking the same thing.  I have a million questions but will refrain from asking as I know you will fill us in as you learn more. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     Poor little man!!! I don't have any advice, but I know he's in the BEST possible place, and he will have the best chance at life anybody could give him. I hope that he adjusts, and does well with you, Kim.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    So w'ere (sort of) settled in now, and trying to get everyone adjusted. My guys can tell there's something in the works, but they aren't sure what. They've only briefly seen Harley, but they don't need to meet for a bit yet.

    Things are a little more complicated than they first seemed. The only way I can describe Harley right now is shell-shocked. When we first pulled in the driveway, I took him for a short walk, and he did go pee but remained at the end of the leash the entire time - not pulling, but as far from me as physically possible. His eyes were like dinner plates and he was throwing every stress signal I know of around. He was put on Clomicalm three weeks ago by their previous vet, but he hasn't been taking it long enough to have any effect, so I am going to continue with its use.

    We walked into the house together and he took immediate refuge under the table in the corner of the kitchen. I let him stay there a while to calm down a bit, but he would not take any treats at all - steak, cheese, nothing. I eventually had to guide him out, which he came willingly, but then looked for another hiding area. I set up the spare bedroom for him. It contain a double-size box spring with a couple comforters and his own beds on it, his toys, and some fresh water. It is separated by a baby gate and when not supervised the full door is shut. I sat with him for a while, and spent about 15 minutes removing his leash. Every time I moved slightly he would stop panting, become close-mouthed, and start lip-licking quickly, eyes widening. So I had to move really slowly. He then crawled under the box spring and stayed there.

    I had a vet appointment, so I closed him in safely and left him a few bits of cooked steak on the floor. They were still there when I returned 1.5 hours later. I did, however, manage to coax him out, leash him, and take him into the office with me, where he currently is. There is a baby gate in the door, and there is an expen set up a few feet from that with a blanket on it currently to obstruct views. I will work to slowly remove the barrier, but for now it is for the best.

    He still does not want me moving anywhere near him, but he is watching me. If I sit down on the floor too closely, he will simply move inward on himself and shiver so hard he rattles the floor. He is acting interested in the other dogs, though, so in a day or so I might let him meet Zipper and see how that goes. But I'm giving him two days of *just* me and my partner with him, and no stress (or as little as possible).

     I have spoken to my own vet, will be speaking with his vet, and will also be speaking with some professionals that I respect to get some other input locally. Right now it's just going to be a matter of seeing what happens in the coming days/weeks. I will not be making any decisions lightly, and I'm not in any rush to make any decisions, but I do have to be realistic as well, and I will make the decision that I feel is the right one, keeping in mind his quality of life, and the safety of everyone involved.

     

    This would prompt me to ask his former family about his socialization history.  You can do it in a non-accusatory way, but it's helpful to know where they took him, how they did it, etc. and at what age, most importantly.  With some dogs, it's not that unusual for them to be terrified at being taken from the only environment they've known.  My own beloved Maska, who ended up to be a terrific therapy dog, had to drag a leash around the house for the first two weeks so that Mike could step on it to catch him to go out for walks!  He didn't bark for three months!  So, don't necessarily label the dog right away, just keep notes of what occurs.  As to the toddler stage being the trigger, that's when a lot of dogs that were previously un-socialized to kids get into trouble.  After all, the strange little animal is now *threatening* not benignly lying in a cradle.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jackie, feel free to ask away. It may give me some things to think about and maybe stir up some helpful info.

    Normally I would not have been in a position to take on a new special needs dog, or any sort of *project dog*. But when it ends up being a dog of a breed you are so passionate about, sometimes the heart strings get tugged a little too much, and you end up giving in. And I'm not immune to the needs of animals, as I've said I've always been drawn to those in need, so here I am once again.......I don't know if I'm caring or crazy, or maybe a little of both.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I completely understand, LOL. I'm so full, right now, it's ridiculous (though Fluffer has a potential VERY GOOD home, she's leaving tomorrow!), but if someone called me with a CC in the same situation.... I'd probably end up taking it.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Your description of his fearfulness when introduced to your house seemed extreme, as Julie mentioned.  My first thought was whether he was ever socialized.  Where has he been since the bite occured?  How did the owners respond when he bit the first time and the second time?  I assumed he had been vet checked because you mentioned he was on meds that hadn't kicked in yet.  You also mentioned he was put on the Clomicalm by the previous vet.  Was this in response to the latest bite?  Why did they change vets? 

    I don't ask for any reason other than to get a grasp of why he's so fearful.  I completely understand how hard this is for you and I take my hat off to you.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh, I have no doubts that lack of appropriate socialization and social isolation are at the root of his problems. What it seems to me, from his reactions and their explanations, is that his early socialization was that of the *typical* country dog where socialization "just happened" - as a pup he met and grew to love both parents, the in-laws, and some of their adult friends, to the point where he was *normal* with them, and around home, but then as an adult dog living in the country for the next six years didn't see much of anybody else and was pretty much environmentally isolated from the world, and nobody in the home realized the effect that it would have had.

    He's doesn't seem at all fearful of *stuff* in the environment, inside or out. Right now it's just with strange people, and perhaps other dogs, as I haven't let him meet anyone face to face yet, although he's had several views through the baby gate.

    The first bite, vet trip, and second bite all happened in the last two weeks. The first bite occurred right before the vet visit, which was on Aug. 20. The meds were started Aug. 22, and the second bite happened two days ago. They didn't change vets, he had been in to their normal clinic at that time. That's about all I know of the incidents at this time.

    As of this morining, he has done both jobs when outside, so he is eliminating normally. And about an hour after I went to bed, I did hear him eat his supper (that I had placed there at about 6pm). He is approaching me to have his leash put on, and this morning has approached and sat next to me by my chair, still tentative but he did softly nudge my hand once for some gentle backscratching. So he's trying to reach out a bit, but he's still not sure he should. If I get up or move suddenly he does back up a little, but not as much as before.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I'm not as knowledgeable about this as the rest of you- I've only had one dog in my entire life and he's an 8 year old beagle mix. We adopted him from a rescue five years ago. Murphy is lovable and sweet- always. BUT, he does not like my granddaughter. She's about 15 months old now, and he has never liked her. He literally sulks and pouts when she comes over to visit. Totally jealous. I NEVER leave them alone in a room together. EVER. As sweet and loving as Murphy is, I don't want something to happen to Addie (my granddaughter) and I don't want to be in a position of defending my dog for something he did. Murphy loves older kids, he just doesn't like babies/toddlers.

    It sounds to me like the parents dropped the ball, and this dog needs to be in a child free home. Was this dog ever abused? I can't imagine why he would be so fearful of people unless he had been. Then again, as I stated at the beginning I only know my dog and what is normal for him.

    I sure hope this poor guy finds a loving home without kids.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    As of this morining, he has done both jobs when outside, so he is eliminating normally. And about an hour after I went to bed, I did hear him eat his supper (that I had placed there at about 6pm). He is approaching me to have his leash put on, and this morning has approached and sat next to me by my chair, still tentative but he did softly nudge my hand once for some gentle backscratching. So he's trying to reach out a bit, but he's still not sure he should. If I get up or move suddenly he does back up a little, but not as much as before.

    This is good to hear.  I hope he continues to relax and adapt.   Many dogs are raised just like him with little or no socialization to anything other than their immediate family members and environment.  I know you have run across this yourself, Kim, with all of your dog experience.  Many dogs raised like him never have a problem with children but when it goes the other way it's really a shame because it maybe could have been prevented.  I don't really see any point in blaming the parents because they certainly wouldn't have ever wanted this outcome.  Many people just don't understand the vital role socialization plays in insuring that dogs can accept changes without fear. 

    Hopefully anyone reading who isn't familiar with why it's so important to socialize their puppies will learn from this dog's story.   Continued good thoughts for you and this boy.  I know it's not going to be easy no matter what the final outcome is for him.

    • Gold Top Dog

    noblewoman
    Was this dog ever abused? I can't imagine why he would be so fearful of people unless he had been.

     

    This is why socialization is so important.  Most extremely fearful dogs are created by owners who don't understand dogs and the importance of early socialization.  I seriously doubt the dog the OP is talking about was ever abused. He was a beloved member of the family.  It's a common misconception that for a dog to be this fearful it must have been abused.  Not true in most cases.

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG
    It's a common misconception that for a dog to be this fearful it must have been abused.  Not true in most cases.

     

    This is worth repeating and emphasizing! people are very quick to call abuse, but the more likely cause is lack of socialization. Some dogs are born naturally reserved and a bit shy of new things. Some dogs are born naturally bold and ready to explore everything. If you fall short on socializing, you get a dog like this: one who doesn't handle change well and is fearful of noises, movement, etc.

    This is why I really hate it when people suggest that you never take your puppy anywhere until it's fully vaccinated. That's just setting your dog up for failure. The risk of disease is far far far less than the risk of missing that critical developmental period of socialization.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan
    He is approaching me to have his leash put on, and this morning has approached and sat next to me by my chair, still tentative but he did softly nudge my hand once for some gentle backscratching.

    Aww, so good to hear he's warming up to you.  I'm sure he's probably a sweetheart deep down!

    He's in the best possible place right now for help....if anyone can help him it's you.

    Good luck and vibes for you both.