Tail cutting and Ear Cutting

Kim_MacMillan

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the argument that if outlawed, the "rednecks with scissors" will be doing it themselves. To be honest, the people who would be doing it themselves are already doing it themselves. Because the people doing it themselves only work to a certain standard (minimal), therefore they don't have to worry about perfect aesthetics. There are many people who do their own crops and docks as it is, and they have the option to get it done by a professional! Money talks, or in this case saving money and gettin' er done talks. It's not going to stop these same people from doing it no matter what laws are in place.

At the same time, I don't think that any responsible breeder, show breeder, or working breeder, would begin suddenly doing their own at-home surgical amputations if the law did pass. Most folks, I would direly hope, have certain values that will prohibit them from doing that, because it is a dangerous, painful, and often messy procedure (docking less messy, but still painful and requires skill). And all it takes is to be reported once to have everything you've worked for ruined.  If it did become outlawed, the kennel clubs would not allow (I don't know about the working clubs, but I'd assume they don't want association with illegal practices even if they don't support them) dogs that were born after the law was in place to be shown.

Those who would still do it after the laws were passed, are the folks who are doing it now anyhow on their own, in their homes, sheds, or garages.

 

Well what i'm saying is outlawing cropping and docking by a professional is not going to stop inhumane cropping. 

Anyway, i guess there's no point in defending my view, it's not going to change anyone elses' mind. As long as I own a doberman, if not a rescue, it will come from a breeder who crops and docks, and removes dew claws.

 Like Jennie, I dig around in dogs ears all day, and there are some schnauzers, (and I've even seen a few yorkies with their ears cropped- ??) where I have to be SOOO careful when I shave them, because there's barely any ear left!

In my opinion, some dogs look great with cropped ears, and some I prefer to look natural. And when I groom a dog who is supposed to have a docked tail that has one, it's always a controversy about what to do with it. (do you shave the tail to go with the body on a schnauzer or cocker, or do you trim it like a shih tzu??) 

 

And on this topic, has anybody seen the trailer for the new Marmaduke movie? Keifer Sutherland is the voice of a Rottie with cropped ears (it might be a dobie, but if it is, it's a really fat and hairy one!) I was shocked by this. If it is indeed a dobie, my bad.

Trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe69_bVKJlc

IrishSetterGrl

They aren't accessories to be trimmed and "made fit" to suit our preferences.

...both of my dogs have only had one surgery each (Cadie was spayed when she was 8, and Riley was neutered when he was 2-3 months old),

 Removing reproductive organs is just another elective surgery owners have performed to make their dogs fit their preferences.

 The law abiding folk follow the law, some would because they know the dog police will get them, others because it's the law and they follow the law even if they disagree.  What happens if you buy or adopt a docked or cropped animal from another venue where it is legal.  Would you have to carry papers or get a permit to have a docked dog?  Do they (PC types) take your dog ?  Will it be legal to even possess a docked or cropped dog.  Will you have to wear a scarlet D on your chest.  Heaven help you if you get a dog with a naturally short tail.

And of course this means that the govt is now establishing breed standards, or that PETA and HSUS are establishing standards for companion animals-which they want to eliminate anyway.

The PC folk will make lots of noise, spend lots of money, influence politicians and will bulldoze through a minority opinion because the majority won't make the effort to slap them down until it is too late. 

thedoc617

And on this topic, has anybody seen the trailer for the new Marmaduke movie? Keifer Sutherland is the voice of a Rottie with cropped ears (it might be a dobie, but if it is, it's a really fat and hairy one!) I was shocked by this. If it is indeed a dobie, my bad.

Trailer here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe69_bVKJlc

 

 The dog is a Beuceron, which traditionally have cropped ears and natural tails:

I guess I just don't understand why a board full of people who love dogs have no problem whatsoever with chopping their body parts off. Just some comments on the pro-body modification arguments...

Tail injury - Yeah, dogs can injure their tails, but they can injure just about every other body part too. They can get their eyes scratched by a branch or another animal. Should we make them wear eye patches, or worse, to prevent an eye injury? Their nails can get caught on something, even if they are trimmed regularly, and have the possibility of being torn out (ouch!). Well, then, let's just remove all their nails  when they're pups, too.

Spaying and neutering - Spaying and neutering is VERY different from cropping/docking. C & D is done for aesthetic purposes, so the dog looks "prettier" to us. C & D is done in the interest of the owner, while S & N is done for the dogs' well-being. As you all know, millions of dogs are euthanized in shelters each year...spaying and neutering obviously prevents more unwanted dogs from ending up in the same situation, and it increases the chances of current dogs finding homes (if there are less dogs in shelters, each will have a better change of finding a home). People even voluntarily get their own version of S & N procedures. You won't find people who crop or dock themselves in one way or another. Why? Because it's barbaric...

Owners' rights - You know, I bet when animal abuse laws were enacted, some people said that these laws would prohibit them from practicing their rights as an owner to treat their dogs as they see fit.

Wolves --> dogs - Yes, people domesticated and as a result changed the wolves' behavior and appearance, but (and I could be mistaken) I'm pretty sure they haven't *literally* sculpted the animals. More like, they just bred certain types to achieve the types of dogs we have now.

Historical meaning - I realize some breed standards call for cropping and docking, but that does not mean its okay. I thought the Dobes ears were changed to make them look more intimidating,  and the breed originated because a German tax collector needed a tough looking dog to accompany him on his route. I'm also wondering why so many Dobe owners hate that people are afraid of their dogs and make them out the be bloodthirsty killers, yet they continue to desire a look that just encourages that line of thinking (cropped ears DO make dobes look more intimidating, without a doubt). Anyway, many dogs were historically bred to fight...to keep with the spirit of tradition, should we just let dog fights occur?

"Home" C & D - Like another poster said, the same people who are doing their own cropping and docking would continue to do so. Those who have a vet make the amputation are generally much more ethical people, and would not do "homemade" procedures.

Tail docking in banned in the U.K., Australia, France, Austria, Belgium, Germany (with exceptions), Netherlands, India, Sweden, and more. I think it's time we step up to the plate.

Seriously, why would people NOT want C & D to be banned (except for medical emergencies, of course)? It's a protection meant to improve animal welfare. It seems to me that a lot of people claim they love and are concerned for the welfare of dogs, yet can list 100 reasons why they should continue to be unnecessarily put under the knife as puppies. Cropping and docking will definitely eventually be banned in the U.S., it's just a matter of time before we get with it.

Oh, and can anyone really say this is NOT a gorgeous dog?

DougB

 The law abiding folk follow the law, some would because they know the dog police will get them, others because it's the law and they follow the law even if they disagree.  What happens if you buy or adopt a docked or cropped animal from another venue where it is legal.  Would you have to carry papers or get a permit to have a docked dog?  Do they (PC types) take your dog ?  Will it be legal to even possess a docked or cropped dog.  Will you have to wear a scarlet D on your chest.  Heaven help you if you get a dog with a naturally short tail.

Um...I'm pretty sure that the authorities would punish the people who performed the crop/dock where it is illegal. If you get a c/d dog from a place where it is legal (because, apparently, natural dogs will become too ugly then), I do not think you would be in trouble. But, of course the law would specify that.

IrishSetterGrl

 C & D is done in the interest of the owner, while S & N is done for the dogs' well-being.

 

Which dog's well-being? 

My concern is for the well being of MY dogs.  I want them to grow at a normal rate with the correct hormonal balance until they are mature.  That is for their well-being.  If you have a problem containing an intact dog that is your problem, not mine.  Sounds like s/n is done in the interest of the owner not being responsible enough to contain their dog and allow it to reach full maturity before "chopping their body parts off" (your words, not mine).

sillysally

>

BTW--We found a great way to deal with happy tail if anyone's interested.....

I am!! Lex has a tail issue sometimes...

IrishSetterGrl

 People even voluntarily get their own version of S & N procedures. You won't find people who crop or dock themselves in one way or another. Why? Because it's barbaric...

Well naturally you aren't going to see any docking since we don't have tails, but I have no idea what you mean by no cropping. People do stuff to their ears all the time.  They get holes punched in them, stretch them out and a number of people will do something that looks surprisingly similar to docking where they split the ear and stitch it back at a point in a procedure for elf ears.

 The difference between cropping a dogs ears and ripping out its eyes is cropping does not cripple the animal.  In fact, cropping will heighten there hearing.  Similarly, taking off part of the dogs tail does not leave it maimed.

 

IrishSetterGrl

(cropped ears DO make dobes look more intimidating, without a doubt).

That right there tells me cropped ears do still serve a function.  Personally if I get a larger dog I plan to go with one that in addition to matching my needs temperament, activity wise, also looks intimidating.  Part of the draw to me to get a larger dog would be the added comfort of living home alone or going on a walk later in the evening and knowing I had a dog that was going to make strangers with bad intentions pause.  This doesn't mean I plan to try and train up a blood thirsty attack dog or even want my dog to try and physically protect me, but I do want a dog that is going to automatically make people think twice before approaching uninvited.

IrishSetterGrl

Um...I'm pretty sure that the authorities would punish the people who performed the crop/dock where it is illegal. If you get a c/d dog from a place where it is legal (because, apparently, natural dogs will become too ugly then), I do not think you would be in trouble. But, of course the law would specify that.

 

There is a real concern out there (google search) that any law will be enforced based on visual data-having a docked dog.  Even if the dog was docked for medical reasons. Some overzealous  AC assuming authority, and at the least , imposing inconvenience.

 

England has a list of dogs that are permitted to be docked based on the use of the dogs-hunting, terriers, law enforcement-because they acknowledge that these dogs are at risk of injury if not docked. It creates another level of govt to work through, more hoops.  It gets strange though.  You can not show a docked dog in a contest people pay to enter.  A champion hunter or herder that is docked can not compete for conformation, even though the dock is to help performance in what the dog was bred to do.

 

The American Rottweiler Club-which of course supports crop and dock, made the following statement;.

The veterinary literature is overwhelmingly conclusive in finding that spay and neuter is not therapeutic in nature, but rather is  detrimental to the health and welfare of the dogs, causing some cancers, hormonal interruptions, aggressive behavior and other maladies attributed  to the spaying or neutering of dogs.

Furthermore, most spay/neuter surgeries are “for the benefit of humans” and the positive effects are outweighed by the impressive list of negative side effects.
  

 JAVMA News: EXECUTIVE BOARDCOVERAGE  (May 15, 2009)
 AVMA: Mandatory Spay/Neuter A Bad Idea

“Prevention of unexpected litters; reduced incidences of some cancers and reproductive diseases; and prevention and amelioration of certain undesirable behaviors have been documented as benefits to spaying/neutering dogs and cats. However, potential health problems associated with spaying and neutering have also been identified, including an increased risk of prostatic cancer in males; increased risks of bone cancer and hip dysplasia in large-breed dogs associated with sterilization before maturity; and increased incidences of obesity, diabetes, urinary tract infections, urinary incontinence, and hypothyroidism”.

          http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may09/090515j.asp

 

 The ARC is also concerned that this seems to be an alignment with animal rights groups, who oppose having companion animals at all.

 I  would expect that a veterinarian would be able to justify a tail dock for medical necessity, just as they would be able to justify the amputation of a dog's leg for medical necessity.  I also think that the law will not be enforced *solely* on visual data here any more than it is in any other country. 

And, ISG, that is a very handsome dog;-))

 

IrishSetterGrl

Seriously, why would people NOT want C & D to be banned

We've stated over and over and over and over why we do not.... you are telling  us you feel our reasons are either invalid or stupid. 

I've said what I'm going to say -- you are not going to change my opinion no matter what you say.  Just like I will not change yours.  There is a lot to be said for passion, but when one shoves it down other people's throats you find you turn off more people than you do not.  

 

Krissim Klaw

Personally if I get a larger dog I plan to go with one that in addition to matching my needs temperament, activity wise, also looks intimidating.  Part of the draw to me to get a larger dog would be the added comfort of living home alone or going on a walk later in the evening and knowing I had a dog that was going to make strangers with bad intentions pause. 

 

I thought I heard that you already had a giant killer.