Guard dog

DumDog

AgileGSD

  I can't say what these dogs are "worth" because I am not the target market. The target market seems willing to pay the prices for these dogs, if they weren't they would either not be priced so high or there would be far fewer people selling such dogs.

 

a fool and his money ...... and then there are those who think just because it has a few extra zeros tacked onto the price means its.. extra special.

like i said... fools. 

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that a fool and his money are soon parted in a case like this. People have different priorities and decide to spend their money according to those priorities. I have a $15K car that gets me to where I need to go, and besides the addition of cruise control and power steering, is a very basic model car. Other people, who put more value on how their car handles/looks/performs, pay $40K, $50K, or more for there cars, even though the use of the car (to get from one place to another) is the same; the difference is how important the car is in a person's priorities. OTOH, I am looking at buying a $2K saddle for one of my horses; I'm sure some people think that is ridiculous, but having this particular saddle is more important to me than having a nicer car. I would love to purchase a horse trained to Grand Prix to compete on while I work on my young horse, but in the big scheme of things, that is not where my priorities are; I would rather use that $50K to buy a bigger house to keep the 2 horses, 3 dogs, 4 cats, and DH in. But I don't think people who do spend the $50K on the Grand Prix horse are dumb - I think they have the means and use those means to follow what is important to them.

Now, if someone does not do the research on what they are buying and ends up paying $30K for a lap dog when what they wanted was a trained, finished protection dog, then yes, a fool and their money are soon parted. But because they choose to pay a large amount of money for a finished product, assuming the product is what they are looking for, does not mean that they are a fool, but rather that they are willing to pay for what is important for them and they have the means to do it, IMO.

miranadobe

Liesje

I personally cannot ever imagine training someone else's dog, or training my own dog with the intent of selling it. 

  Trainers train others' dogs constantly, worldwide, not just for personal or estate or executive protection.  In this case, the trainer holds ownership of the dog until the dog is purchased by its owner.  Not dissimilar to breeders anywhere, I tend to think, just the duration and investment of time and training.  If I went into a situation where I could train a dog for someone else that would fit that person's needs, I wouldn't see it as "my" dog.  Like service dog puppy raisers or trainers don't see that dog as theirs, usually.

 

I am just very skeptical of it all because of the dogs I have seen that have been "professionally trained" for someone, by someone else.  Often the training is rushed, sometimes forced on dogs that just don't have the right genetics, most is done using escape/avoidance with the ends justifying any means, or the dogs are simply duds, not interested in protection work without tons of stim from the helper, won't just quickly sit on command, etc.  Some that I know that were purchased as trained or titled, or sent somewhere for training/titling and then when they come back, the original owner can't do much with them because the dogs simply don't respond to anything but escape training.  Not saying all trainers are like this, but of the dogs I have laid my hands on and watched work personally, I have yet to see one work as if it were trained with the care and precision of someone who was really concerned with the foundation work, the correctness (not just points and/or being able to do the behavior, but the correct level of intensity), and using the most appropriate methods for that particular dog.  I considered some "professional" training for my dog but after seeing these dogs before and after, nuh uh, no way!!  The Harrison web site says their training takes three months, and then just a two-day course on site with the trainer.  To me that is scary, training a dog supposedly well above and beyond SchH3 level in three months.... I dunno, maybe when I meet some of the success stories I'll change my mind!

At any rate, there are good trainers/programs for protection, estate, and executive dogs that cost considerably less (same level of training, probably better trainers), but don't happen to be marketing in this niche.

ETA:  I really don't have a problem with people purchasing these dogs if that's where they want to spend their money, but I don't like JQP assuming that these dogs are somehow far superior in pedigree and/or training than several thousand other great working line dogs across the world that could probably blow them out of the water with their training and level of control.

DumDog

AgileGSD

  I can't say what these dogs are "worth" because I am not the target market. The target market seems willing to pay the prices for these dogs, if they weren't they would either not be priced so high or there would be far fewer people selling such dogs.

 

a fool and his money ...... and then there are those who think just because it has a few extra zeros tacked onto the price means its.. extra special.

like i said... fools. 

I think that it is easy to refer to someone as a "fool" for spending that much on a dog.  Unless you have ever truly feared for your life, you have no clue what peace of mind is worth.  IMO, if a dog gives you that peace of mind, & feeling of security, then it is priceless.

I was stalked last year.  Although it had been going on for a little over 6 months, I only found out in the last month, when the guy became very brazen & more aggressive about it.  It is an absolutely terrifying feeling to know that I was being followed, & that my family might be in danger.  It's a feeling that I wouldn't wish upon anyone.  I can honestly say that, had I not had dogs who I believed would protect me, one of which eventually did protect me, then I would have looked towards other methods of keeping myself & my family safe.  If that makes me a fool, so be it.

FWIW, the company that I work for offered me a bodyguard, which I declined due to privacy concerns.  Had I accepted the bodyguard, they would have payed his agency $680 a day for his services.   

 

Liesje

I am just very skeptical of it all because of the dogs I have seen that have been "professionally trained" for someone, by someone else. 

Liesje

Some that I know that were purchased as trained or titled, or sent somewhere for training/titling and then when they come back, the original owner can't do much with them because the dogs simply don't respond to anything but escape training.  Not saying all trainers are like this, but of the dogs I have laid my hands on and watched work personally, I have yet to see one work as if it were trained with the care and precision of someone who was really concerned with the foundation work, the correctness (not just points and/or being able to do the behavior, but the correct level of intensity), and using the most appropriate methods for that particular dog. 

 

Were any of those estate/executive protection dogs, or just SchH dogs? 

I wonder if we're differentiating between a dog "professionally trained for someone else", (particularly in the sports of SchH), versus a dog trained as an estate/executive protection dog.  Because I DO differentiate between the two.  The trainer I knew who did both, did different training for the different types of protection dogs (who had various levels of expected outcome and thus training) versus the SchH dogs.  (Some overlapping, of course, but there was a difference.)  And I do know what you mean by the quote above, because I think it's a pretty fair depiction of some of the results of lesser SchH training applied by some board-and-train facilities.  Totally right that it's nothing like the dogs bonded to owner/handlers who work with the dog and bring out its best in the best ways for the dog.  Board and trains for any sport are pretty easy to come by, which means to me the quality can have a pretty wide range.  I think the people who specialize in high level estate/executive protection dogs that are bought for these tens of thousands of dollars are a much narrower population of trainers - at least the ones who are used by training-savvy folks, not the wanna-be's who pay for name not results. 

Liesje

At any rate, there are good trainers/programs for protection, estate, and executive dogs that cost considerably less (same level of training, probably better trainers), but don't happen to be marketing in this niche.

  Probably very true, just like a lot of areas in dogs and dog sports.

Liesje

The Harrison web site says their training takes three months, and then just a two-day course on site with the trainer.  To me that is scary, training a dog supposedly well above and beyond SchH3 level in three months....

- I have no idea about those dogs.  I wonder if the training program identified as 3-months is for dogs who already have an advanced foundation.  (We're also talking about a website that seems to be overloaded on marketing versus education, so I take the statements there with a decent helping of skepticism, personally.)  I don't know what level those dogs are trained to, and imagine some of it could be done in 3 months if a dog already has a good foundation.  Other, more discerning jobs that require higher levels of training (think man-stoppers) would require a special canine candidate to begin with, and I'm guessing more time in training (but I don't know what is appropriate time-wise for training at that level.)

I will take an Am Staff with general protection instincts over one of these specially trained "personal protection" dogs any day. I have all the protection I need and she didn't cost me thirty grand! I spent ZERO on her training (did it all myself) and have the perfect security dog.

lorib

and have the perfect security dog.

 Would she take treats from me if I offered them?  (Good girl!)

ok hold on just a second here. you're talking to someone who DOES live in fear because my family is law enforcement/prison/ATF.. you think i dont worry about some vindictive inmate/crack head finding my home and getting his revenge? You think i havent been harassed? we also live in a community with a mental institution with recent escapees(not just happy crazy people.. scary crazy people)my mom got attacked by one of her inmates shortly before retiring(as a result of her injuries) and every time she's out in public she sees her ex "clients" - and that puts me and my kids in danger if we happen to be with her.

those are the reasons i like my breed and will always have a pair of bulldogs. and i dont need to spend 30k to have peace of mind and be able to sleep soundly at night. If i HAD to pay 30k then i would just be screwed wouldnt i? i dont have a company that offers a body guard or night security. i didnt spend anything on my dogs except time. yeah i understand if someone has that kind of money they would invest it where ever they want and thats totally their business.... but seriously.. like Liesj was saying.... thats not the best way to protect your life... and CAN be dangerous to all involved.

When i said FOOL i very seriously mean these people in the OP... who throw their dollar bills around like leaves in the fall. it was already stated(which was why i said fool in the first place) that this guy was hiding his money to keep from paying up. he is getting divorced, filing bankruptcy, buying things he claims he cannot afford and he's just acting like a damned FOOL.

maybe thats my idiotic opinion but i stand by it. your situation of being stalked is probably not even in the same ball park as this guy. maybe there are more details to this but come on..... if you were going to spend that much money to protect your life wouldnt you find a better, more effective way of doing it?  it strikes me as foolish to go with a big company name without doing more research. its hasty, its not thinking things through. if they were truly concerned with their safety and well being then would have taken different measures.. maybe even.. oh i dunno.. filed restraining orders? i dont know if they did. but instead it sounds like the guy was looking for a quick fix to the problem... just like someone who has a prowler one night runs to the shelter and buys the biggest meanest ugliest dog in there... and THEY cant even control it.

in fact i think there was an episode of Married with Children about this very subject... 

 

Dont think for a moment that i dont know what its like to be afraid or that i have issues with how people spend their money. thats on them. but from what i've seen here, this guy is a first class idiot. 

I guess for that guy's peace of mind, he decided he needed a $30k dog, just as for your peace of mind, you have your bulldogs.

I can honestly say, that I looked into buying a protection dog a couple of years ago and also K-9 dog trainers, while I was really badly dealing with my stalking situation.  Most people know that if someone tries to get into a house and they hear a large dog barking, they probably will think twice about going in.

Unfortunately, and you must know this, restraining orders don't do anything if the person is mentally unstable or just doesn't care.  Holding a piece of paper up in front of you to the person isn't going to stop them if they are intent on hurting you.  All that piece of paper does is ensure that the police will come, and will arrest them on sight.  But police could take a couple minutes or longer to get to you.  And in that time who knows what the person would do.

If the guy had the money to spend on a dog, and he decided to, then so be it.  Hell if I had billions of dollars I might buy an expensive protection dog, if that's what I felt safe with and would protect me.  Do I think they have any "special" trainign worth the 30k?  No lol but to some people spending extra means you have extra.  If it helped him sleep better at night then so be it.

It's like these celebrities who buy these multi-million dollar homes.  Do they need all that space for two of them?  No.  But they can afford it, so they buy it.  I can't afford one, so I don't have one, but they can, so they do

miranadobe

Were any of those estate/executive protection dogs, or just SchH dogs? 

I wonder if we're differentiating between a dog "professionally trained for someone else", (particularly in the sports of SchH), versus a dog trained as an estate/executive protection dog.  Because I DO differentiate between the two.  The trainer I knew who did both, did different training for the different types of protection dogs (who had various levels of expected outcome and thus training) versus the SchH dogs.  (Some overlapping, of course, but there was a difference.)  And I do know what you mean by the quote above, because I think it's a pretty fair depiction of some of the results of lesser SchH training applied by some board-and-train facilities.  Totally right that it's nothing like the dogs bonded to owner/handlers who work with the dog and bring out its best in the best ways for the dog.  Board and trains for any sport are pretty easy to come by, which means to me the quality can have a pretty wide range.  I think the people who specialize in high level estate/executive protection dogs that are bought for these tens of thousands of dollars are a much narrower population of trainers - at least the ones who are used by training-savvy folks, not the wanna-be's who pay for name not results.

The SchH dogs are good dogs but had the right genetics and temperament to carry them through this type of training.  However, now it takes ten times the effort because we are having to re-train them or having to learn how to use escape training to go any farther. I guess if just getting the title was the only goal, with these dogs it may have worked out b/c they are sound mentally, but moving on to higher titles is a PITA.  My experience with the "protection dogs" has been that they are actually quite duddy (don't even bark at the doorbell, won't sit on command, etc), or the dog was actually a good dog for the work but too much for the owner to handle.  However I don't personally know anyone that spent $30,000 on their protection dog (breeding dogs, yes). 

Personally I wish people would just carry a gun or hire a security guard for protection.  One of Kenya's half siblings was a family protection dog and was shot and killed when he went after someone.  One of the reasons I have GSDs is that they bark and are a good visual deterrent, even with street dog LE K9s that's typically all that's needed (at least on the forces around here, street bites are pretty rare).  With all the BSL and how litigious people are these days, it's like the more protection training the dog has, the more they are just a liability

l.michelle

 

Unfortunately, and you must know this, restraining orders don't do anything if the person is mentally unstable or just doesn't care.  Holding a piece of paper up in front of you to the person isn't going to stop them if they are intent on hurting you.  All that piece of paper does is ensure that the police will come, and will arrest them on sight.  But police could take a couple minutes or longer to get to you.  And in that time who knows what the person would do.

If the guy had the money to spend on a dog, and he decided to, then so be it.  Hell if I had billions of dollars I might buy an expensive protection dog, if that's what I felt safe with and would protect me.  Do I think they have any "special" trainign worth the 30k?  No lol but to some people spending extra means you have extra.  If it helped him sleep better at night then so be it.

It's like these celebrities who buy these multi-million dollar homes.  Do they need all that space for two of them?  No.  But they can afford it, so they buy it.  I can't afford one, so I don't have one, but they can, so they do

yeah but for half of 30k he could have hired a couple of body guards who may either carry a gun or have their own pp dogs. i know a piece of paper isnt going to stop someone. i already said i've had experience with personal assault on more than a few occasions. but hell,for 30k + the money owed to a car dealership... i dont know,  I would move to another location and change my identity. he isnt thinking like someone who is afraid for his and his girlfriends life. it just sounds like a quick fix "Killer Dogs For Hire? Yeah, lemme have Brutus over there. But make it quick.. i have an appointment with a Lamborghini later today "

 

Personally I wish people would just carry a gun or hire a security guard for protection.  One of Kenya's half siblings was a family protection dog and was shot and killed when he went after someone.  One of the reasons I have GSDs is that they bark and are a good visual deterrent, even with street dog LE K9s that's typically all that's needed (at least on the forces around here, street bites are pretty rare).  With all the BSL and how litigious people are these days, it's like the more protection training the dog has, the more they are just a liability

THATS what i'm saying. If its your time then its your time, a gun can be taken away, your dog can get shot, and you're just screwed. 30k isnt going to change any of that.

For the last time though, i dont have a problem with someone protecting their lives, or spending their money the way they want. as long as its their money they can light it up and smoke it for all i care. but it sounds like he and his soon to be ex wife signed an agreement, he broke the agreement by buying this dog to protect his girlfriend, he's already in trouble with the judge for stashing money.... bla bla bla we're on two different subjects here. 

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness = Important

getting a girlfriend, a divorce, filing bankruptcy, buying Super Dog to protect you from your ex(yeah you'd better protect yourself because most women would go off the deep end over that) and pissing off the judge while in the middle of an estate battle = Unwise choices. but thats just my opinion because i am not rich and never will be. i cant fathom the concept of being frivolous to the extreme.

lorib

I will take an Am Staff with general protection instincts over one of these specially trained "personal protection" dogs any day. I have all the protection I need and she didn't cost me thirty grand! I spent ZERO on her training (did it all myself) and have the perfect security dog.

 Untrained dogs can't be relied on to protect you. Most will bark but beyond that, it gets rather iffy.

Just to clarify, I have no issue with this person, his dogs, or the dog company, or how anyone spends their money.  Even if he wanted to spend $30,000 on a Chihuahua that is a lap dog for his kids, that's his business.  I do not know anyone who has spend *that* much for a PPD but I do know someone who has spent that much or more on the purchase of a dog and it was probably a justifiable price.  My experiences with this breed and this type of training has been across the spectrum of really good to worthless.  The price is NOT always indicative of the quality of the dog OR the training (but that is probably true for any breed, and of any dog related endeavor).  I just wish overall, people put more thought and research into this sort of thing.  I've seen people put quite a bit of research into purchasing a gun, or getting self defense training but will drop thousands on a dog on a whim, making an assumption that the price must reflect the quality of the dog (when in fact the price often is more of a reflection of what people will pay).  There is someone I know of (have not met him yet but know people who have worked dogs with him) who trains these types of dogs and this person is a great trainer, I would not hesitate to train my dogs with him if I had the opportunity and would buy dogs from him if I could afford them, but I'm sure he would admit that there is a level of prestige that comes into play with these dogs and their prices.  The majority of these dogs are actually show line dogs, who historically do not have the temperament, drive, or hardness that really is the best for this type of work, but carry more prestige as far as being the "high line" look.  So I'm not taking issue with the price or how people spend their money, but whether or not this training is fair to the dog and whether or not people even bother to consider this.  I don't care if someone gets a dog for free or pays $100K as long as they make an informed decision and get the dog that is truly right for them and their lifestyle, and not just based on the looks of the dog and how it is marketed.

Liesje

I just wish overall, people put more thought and research into this sort of thing.  I've seen people put quite a bit of research into purchasing a gun, or getting self defense training but will drop thousands on a dog on a whim, making an assumption that the price must reflect the quality of the dog (when in fact the price often is more of a reflection of what people will pay). 

 

thats how i feel. 

but who knows.. i dont know this guy personally. maybe he did do all his research and this dog is worth every dime spent..... but the timing and context were sketchy.