We have accepted defeat......

Thank you soooooo much for the great advice..... I've already printed it off and put it in my wallet!!!
 
Roxi seems to be getting better.... but boy, she sure HATES that crate.... I've learned to put her in it BEFORE i get dressed for work....... it's a little hard to LIFT and PUSH her into it with a skirt and heels on!!! I'm anxiously awaiting the day I can say "crate" and she'll go..... but i think she may see it as punishment, cuz she sure doesn't like it... even with "fun" toys and great tasting chewy things.... she HATES to go in there....

Rhonda - try not to push her in - sends off bad vibes.    Take a day this weekend to get her used to going in on her own.   Find something she just completely loves and adores (probably a food item) and toss it into the crate WAY WAY WAY in the back so the only way she can get to it is to go in.    Don't close the door, just let her get the treat.   Do it over and over.  When she's doing that perfectly start closing the door, just for a few seconds at first, working your way up to 10 minutes or so.   Don't leave, just sit there.   When she's doing that perfectly then close the door and leave for a second - come right back and let her out.   Do it again and again and again slowly working up the time to 5 or 10 minutes.    This will take a whole day - but it's worth it.
 
Once you've gotten that far take another day to start leaving the house - first just for a second, then add another second, then another.   Again, its another whole day and your neighbors will think you're nuts, but again, its worth it.
 
If she won't go all the way in just put your hand on her butt to get her to move forward a bit - no pressure, just gently touch.
 
I had to do this over several weeks with Prancer (separation anxiety) but she goes right into the crate now.   for her I've found the best treat is her stuffed kong.  I stuff it with soft food or with plain yogurt and mashed banana which I freeze.  She ONLY gets her Kong when she's in the crate - so the Kong MEANS "crate time" and she zips into that crate in a flash the second she sees the Kong.    She still crys after I leave, but the crying stops in only a few minutes now once she realizes that the Kong is STILL there.

ORIGINAL: RhondaNE

Thank you soooooo much for the great advice..... I've already printed it off and put it in my wallet!!!

Roxi seems to be getting better.... but boy, she sure HATES that crate.... I've learned to put her in it BEFORE i get dressed for work....... it's a little hard to LIFT and PUSH her into it with a skirt and heels on!!! I'm anxiously awaiting the day I can say "crate" and she'll go..... but i think she may see it as punishment, cuz she sure doesn't like it... even with "fun" toys and great tasting chewy things.... she HATES to go in there....

 
Cut a piece of hot dog or lunch meat and toss it in the crate when you want her to go in it. 

Anther really good item to leave in the crate with her when you leave her in the crate for awhile is nice new juicy marrow bone.  I give them to River and he is a big dog too, it takes him hours to dig the marrow out.  Go to the butcher or the butcher in the your local grocery meat department and ask for them to be cut around 6 - 8 inches long.  I think that she will find it yummy enough to keep her interest for awhile.  I buy a few at a time and freeze them.
 
Keep us poster.

Crates should be good things.  To get Zami used to hers I used it as her toy box and fed her all her meals in there.  To get all her favorite toys and chewies she had to go in her crate and pull them out.  I threw treats in there and made her go get them.  I put her raw bones inside the crate and was only allowed to chew them in the crate while indoors or take them outside.  I put her food dish inside the crate in the morning with her kibble, fed her some canned in the evening on a plate in her crate, and then took everything back out at night except her favorite items so she had room to lay down.  Zami is also not one for enclosed spaces and much prefers the middle of the floor to a den so she doesn't use her crate much anymore.  It was important though to make it so I could use it without me or especially someone else having to shove her in.  I can now tell her to go into a crate or wire pen without any physical contact and she will stay there with only limited whining and occasionally tapping it with a paw to show her displeasure.  We only used it consistently for about 2months though because I prefer to just tie her to me or keep track of her while I'm home and she can now be trusted to stay in a room with minimal chewing hazards while I'm gone.  Surprisingly this pup that gets into everything and completely mass destroyed my bedroom when left alone for less than 2 hours just a couple months ago can now stay loose in everything but the bathroom(likes to eat soap and toilet paper) and the room with the small pets for 8 hours without me coming home to damage or messes on the floor.

In other words, what everyone is saying (and they ARE right) is that the crate shouldn't be associated with JUST your leaving.  You gotta use the crate as a central activity center, food center and place where good things happen.
 
You might find a Kong to be a good new friend.  Stuff her breakfast in there (there are all sorts of things to use with a Kong -- from yogurt mixed with kibble and then frozen, pureed veg mixed with kibble and then frozen, or even a wee bit of peanut butter to get them started working on it.  At first don't make it tough -- just put kibble in and then it becomes a 'game' to roll it around so the kibble comes out.  Then make it more challenging.
 
The raw bone (you can freeze it first to kill bacteria if you want) is awesome -- great for teeth as well as a treasured activity for in the crate.  Don't do that one alone tho -- especially not the first time. 
 
But if you associate the crate with things OTHER than just your leaving it takes the 'sting' out of it. 

When I first got Casey, I would feed him his meals in the crate. I put the bowl in just enough that he has to step inside the crate to get his food. I would start with the bowl right on the edge, and slowly move it to the back of the crate. I left the door open, and now, he loves to go in his crate for a quick nap or to chew a bone in peace.

I like to think of the crate (or in Marlowe's case, his room) as 'Home Base'. I do everything I can to foster that idea in them. It definately seems to have worked because both dogs are quite attached to their own little inviolable slices of the universe. Marlowe runs to his room to wait when he's not sure what's going to happen next. Conrad goes to his crate to relax when he doesn't know what else to do with himself. I've never forced either one of them in to their spots. Never underestimate the power of food in these cases.

Feed all meals in the crate. Every time you pass the crate, throw some really high value treats in there to be disocvered. Constantly encourage Roxi to go in and investigate her crate and see what's waiting for her in there. And when it's time for her to go in and you to leave the house, provide the most amazingly special wonderful delectable stinky disgusting treat or food item you can possibly imagine--throw it in the crate and lure Roxi in.

I just read the posts. The great advice from so many people is very satisfying to read. So much good advice in one place. I hope there are more follow up posts from RhondaNE. We've had to hang out near our open crate until it was seen as a place that was desirable. We would play, read or even watch TV nearby to make it a place of activity.

This might sound like a stupid question, totally unrelated to any of her problems, but, I'll ask anyway ... what are you feeding her?
Years back, I had a problem chewer - he ate everything but the walls, and yeah, he even started on the floors. NOTHING helped. Not crating, exercize, etc. Nothing. He literally destroyed out house in a matter of weeks.
Several months ago, my dogs were experiencing an array of behavior problems, unrinary incontinance and HYPERACTIVITY. It was so bad I was ready to sell them and get out of dogs altogether. Both times, I thought the problems I was dealing with were training/behavorial in nature. Wrong on both accounts.
The first dog was cured when I began supplementing him with RMBs (raw meaty bones). Instead of crating him when I left the house, I gave him a real bone. I omitted kibble meals and fed him raw. The bones have a calming effect, not to mention they offer excellent nutrition.
The second case, where I had a house and kennel full of off the wall Beagles who couldn't control their urine I was feeding a kibble that had been changing the formula (Eukanuba) ... this was a few weeks before the recalls & to this day I believe their brand is tainted. Their canned food was recalled, but not the dry. However, I believe their dry is making dogs sick as well, as I'm not the only one who has experienced problems with it. I pulled my dogs off that brand and volia! Like magic they calmed down, no more accidents, no more excessive barking/whining (except for when a bitch is in heat, lol).
     I would seriously consider both changing kibbles and supplementing this dog with fresh meat and raw bones. He also needs socialization & a bit of patience. If he's afraid of a new situation, use some freeze dried liver treats to pick up his mood [] His problems don't sound unmanageable ... diet will not be a magic bullet cure all, but try adding meat and meaty bones, get him on a different food, and see if that doesn't help. [sm=2cents.gif] 

If you are new to raw, and a bit leery, my advice would be to start off by giving her a marrow bone (leg bone of a cow - must be raw, not cooked) in her crate (the crate will become a magical place).  Just scoop out most of the marrow the first few times, as they can get diarrhea (it's very rich compared to kibble).  This will help satisfy the natural urge to chew (many dogs chew just to calm themselves).  And, it helps make your comings and goings more bearable for the dog.

I too am just getting around to reading this. Good for YOU Rhonda,,you are working it out. Reading all the great suggestions from all the knowing people here,,, will help tremendously!
 
I don't have any added suggestions or anything..but I do want to add one thing.  I almost gave up my Bubblegum...within month from the time I got her.  Not for the same issues that you have. Yours can be settled with a crate and time, I believe.   But the reason I did not give Bubby up is that I got her from her breeder...and they gave her up at 3 yrs old because she could not be bred anymore (mastitis)    Her issues were aggresion... or something close to it.  My son who is friends with the breeders husband...said she would be destroyed if I gave her back.   She had not done anything to be destroyed.... I could not do that to her.     I kept her.  I want you to know that she is still not the dog that I might have hoped for...especially in a giant breed....but I could not love her more,,, I could not be happier that I have her.  It might have taken a good year to get her "home" but gee,,,,I almost gave her up and that would have been such a terrible mistake!
Thank you for trying harder with your baby!
PS.... Bubby no longer uses a crate...she eventually proved herself to be trustworthy without it...but I was throwing something she loved, in it to get her in without being mean...and that is blocks of cheese.     So many dogs grow to love their crates...and look to them as security.  Hopefully that will be yours.

Well.... it was a good weekend..... Roxi seems to adjusting---either that or she's just a great actress..... She will go into her crate without being PUSHED into it..... we have found that the 'treat' thing works really well.... we can say 'crate' and start walking towards it.... this morning she beat me in living room and was in it and turned around before I had gotten over to it !!!

I never thought about putting her food and water in it...... i thought she would just spill it all over the place, but it's a good idea to put it in there while she's 'out', so she has to go in to get get.....

We've just been using the crate if we left, but i can see the benefits of using it to HER needs also.....

She seems like a happier more laid back dog..... she doens't seem sooo hyper. or something.... not sure how to describe it..... she seems more 'settled' or something.....

Content? I've noticed that dogs who have their own special place are more content, and more relaxed. They feel safe.

A marrow bone would be a fantastic way to make the crate more fun. My dogs FLY into their crates when I open the chest freezer, LOL.

Conrad's crate was a godsend for him. His entire demenour changed, for the better. He might still be squirrelly now, but you should have seen him before! His crate saved his life, quite literally.

And yes, frozen marrow bones are awesome! Just supervise her closely with them the first few times you give them to make sure she doesn't do any of the following habitually: try to crack the bone open, bite off big chunks of bone, try to pretty much eat the bone (they're not for eating). If she does try to do any of those things, take the bone away, but do it nicely so she gets a nice big reward (lunch meat?) for giving up her yummy bone to you. Don't just try to snatch it and not give her anything in return.