Educated a co-worker on pet stores

Whoops, double post.

ORIGINAL: Liesje

His "solution" seems to involve making false judgments about an entire group of people he has no experience with, that's what's bad about it. 

 
Once again not my depiction but your take that seems to include a heavy dose of bias.  BTW, the "group" is the BREEDER and your use refers to a segment of the breeder.

ORIGINAL: ottoluv
I think you are missing the point, no one is saying that they don't serve a purpose and I don't see any talk about how to solve the problem, just arguing for the sake of arguling. Just my [sm=2cents.gif]

 
You don't see advocating one organization of breeders that is self governing, self regulating that controls breeding puppies and their distrubtion as a solution. 
 
Mark my word, In all likelyhood, the rescues and volunteers that are left to clean up the messes will create and dictate the solution and most likely, it will be by legislation.  No breeder will be happy with this.

ORIGINAL: ottoluv

As much as we don't like it, puppy mills obviously serve a purpose, or they'd cease to exist.

I think you are missing the point, no one is saying that they don't serve a purpose and I don't see any talk about how to solve the problem, just arguing for the sake of arguling. Just my [sm=2cents.gif]

Yeah, when the point is simply to argue, I always miss the point []. But in order to do problem solving, (or simply something other than complaining and arguing) the pieces of the puzzle must be laid out and named. The naming of the pieces is where the arguing is happening, so moving forward to problem solving can't happen.

It seems there's a history to this conversation, that I, for one am not privy to. But here we are in this conversation, now. And, it seems reasonable to analyze the niche that each type of breeder serves, in order to understand the whole market.

For example, why do so many people want to buy "purebreds", instead of the sweet mutts down at the shelter? Hmmm. Could it have something to do with status? There are status dogs that go through the rigorous breeding/homing process. For most people who are unwilling or unable ($1200+ for a mini-schnau!) to go through that process, but still desire a status animal, "other breeders" is where they go, not the shelter. Am I understanding this correctly?

So, the elitism of sectors of the dog world can be argued to have an affect on people's purchasing behaviors, yes? This is not judgment on my part, it's examination. I haven't said that papered purebred breeders are bad are wrong, I'm simply puzzling out pieces of the industry. What's bad about that?

It's funny, people are convinced that my dog must be a purebred something. They are truly disappointed when I insist that she's a mutt. They find her so dignified and beautiful, that "she must be a something." Seems there's a perception that purebreds are better than mutts. So how is that attitude addressed, in trying to steer folks away from cheap, mass produced purebreds?

I'm an in favor of both legislation AND a single governing organization (provided it does the right job, not like the AKC which technically governs breeders breeding over a certain number of litters a year and registering AKC, but we all know they support and advertise puppy mills so a lot of good that did) to control breeding in this country.

For example, why do so many people want to buy "purebreds", instead of the sweet mutts down at the shelter? Hmmm. Could it have something to do with status? There are status dogs that go through the rigorous breeding/homing process. For most people who are unwilling or unable ($1200+ for a mini-schnau!) to go through that process, but still desire a status animal, "other breeders" is where they go, not the shelter.

So, the elitism of sectors of the dog world can be argued to have an affect on people's purchasing behaviors, yes? This is not judgment on my part, it's examination. I haven't said that papered purebred breeders are bad are wrong, I'm simply puzzling out pieces of the industry. What's bad about that?

But see this is the type of response that gets peoples backs up!  The assumption that people only want purebred dogs for status and elitism.  Don't lump those types of people in with us here simply b/c they exist.  I am not responsible for the motives of others.  I do not have to constantly justify why I got the animals I did and I don't think it's really anyone's business but me, my family, my trainers, the breeders, and my friends that I train and will show with.  Anyway, most of the strangers I see with the "elitism" attitude actually buy from a puppy mill, pet store, or BYB b/c they want a dog instantly and they want it to have "papers" (like that's what makes it elite).  The purebreds I have gone to see at the few local pet shops still selling dogs have been far more expensive than the pet quality purebreds from local breeders.  At least in my locale, there really is NO excuse for going to a pet store for a dog.

You don't see advocating one organization of breeders that is self governing, self regulating that controls breeding puppies and their distrubtion as a solution.

 
Do you honsetly believe that will solve anything.  You know in the 90's the AKC started a breeder inspection program.  Guess what,  people that wouldn't pass their requirements or didn't want inspections went to their own registry.  That is how the ConKC started.  Yes, government is sticking their nose in dogs now and it is not because of breeding.  It is because there is a small but very vocal and well funded group of individuals that want to end all breeding.  Btw, the messes you refer to I would bet are caused by irresponsible ownership, not breeding.  I hear it all the time from rescue types,  It's all the breeders fault and if they just didn't breed we wouldn't have these problems.  Well, if they didn't breed we wouldn't have any dogs!!!!!
 
 
 
 

For example, why do so many people want to buy "purebreds", instead of the sweet mutts down at the shelter? Hmmm. Could it have something to do with status? There are status dogs that go through the rigorous breeding/homing process. For most people who are unwilling or unable ($1200+ for a mini-schnau!) to go through that process, but still desire a status animal, "other breeders" is where they go, not the shelter. Am I understanding this correctly?

I hope you are not insinuating that most people who desire a purebred animal do so for "status". I assume you really don't mean this as it would be increadibly insulting to many of us on this board. Most that want a certain type of dog want it as there will be a known outcome and you can choose a pet with traits/appearance/size that are well described. For example my brother got a mixed breed puppy from a shelter, he was supposed to be about 25 pounds full grown and was billed as a heeler mix. He is about 50 pounds and clearly a pit mix. Does it matter to my brother, not so much since he lives in a huge house with a large yard but for someone looking for a dog of a particular size/temperment/activity level it's nice to know. I do understand that there are breed variations, but you are much more likely to have a problem with a aussie mix in a studio apartment then you would with a chihuahua.

AKC, but we all know they support and advertise puppy mills

 
Exactly how does the AKC support puppy mills.  I'd really like to know?
 

Liesje, I don't see how an examination of status makes you feel the need to justify yourself. [] If the question is: why do people buy from puppy mills rather than good breeders or shelters, we can either just dismiss all "those" people as stupid and lazy, or we can look at what makes up their desire for and access to animals.

timsdat, so would you say the whole game boils down to WHO gets legislated: breeders or distributors or owners?

Does anyone have a link for statements made by responsible breeders that give their opinion on solving the crisis of unwanted dogs in this country?

ETA: ottoluv, If consumers were educated enough to understand that purebreds were more likely to be physically healthy and mentally balanced due to their selective and careful breeding, they wouldn't be buying mass produced puppies, right? So, if good standards isn't what's driving people to puppy mills, what is? I have taken up the question of status seeking as a point to examine. What would you suggest instead?

Does anyone have a link for statements made by responsible breeders that give their opinion on solving the crisis of unwanted dogs in this country?

 
That's if you believe that there is a crisis. 
 
Nathan Winograd states that the overpopulation problem is a myth!!!!  He is a leader in the no kiill movement.
 
[linkhttp://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/]http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/[/link]
 
 

Well if it hadn't been for the uproar from the Delgates, they would have entered into a business arrangement with Petland to provide registration on site at time of purchase.
 
They do not police the registration process nor have adequate inspection services to examine documentation or make on site visits.
 
They stated their reason for entering into an agreement with Petland was to boost revenue since they had been loosing money and because they did not want to substantially increase event fees.
 
The reality is AKC is a library of pedigrees and an organization that sponsors dog events.  If there is to be major policing of breeding, it needs to be done by the national clubs.  Which can be a bit tough since some clubs wont let you be a member until some pretty steep requirements are met.  One of the breed clubs I belong was actually debating membership limits that would have prevented me from joining the club since I did not own the breed at the time I entered (I was on the waiting list for a puppy).

Well if it hadn't been for the uproar from the Delgates, they would have entered into a business arrangement with Petland to provide registration on site at time of purchase.

 
So providing POS registrations instead of having the person mail in the registration is supporting puppy mills.
 

they had been loosing money

 
There is something wrong with a organization not wanting to go into the red???
 

They do not police the registration process nor have adequate inspection services to examine documentation or make on site visits.

So I guess that no breeder should be able to register since every breeder isn't inspected on every litter.  That goes for all breeders not just high volume.
 

there is to be major policing of breeding, it needs to be done by the national clubs.

What good would that do.  Anyone could just tell the national club to bugger off and register with the the ConKC and we would be exactly where we are today.
 
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat
[linkhttp://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/]http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/[/link]

Wow, that was a great read! Thanks! Fancy that, I learned something in a thread about education! [] Yay!

If the question is: why do people buy from puppy mills rather than good breeders or shelters, we

I have no idea why.  It makes NO sense.  Again, it will be different in different parts of the country b/c people want different kinds of dogs and there may or may not be shelters and such, but around HERE it's CHEAPER to get a well bred purebred puppy from a local responsible breeder than one of the pet stores.  As I said earlier, DH and I have been looking into local breeders for a few different breeds and never once were we turned away or denied b/c we were JQP looking for family pets.  Maybe that is true in some areas, but I have not seen any of that here.  Also, there are breed rescues galore!  Heck, we have a local breed rescue for Powderpuff Chinese Cresteds.  I have never met a person looking for one of these but if I do I now know there is a rescue just for them!  Once I decided on breed, I applied to the local GSD rescue and was approved and sent information on a possible matching dog the next day.  There are also purebreds in our shelters, many who are turned in with registration papers and official pedigrees. 

Around here, people simply cannot use the excuse that they don't want to wait for a dog, they don't want to pay more to a breeder, or they are being turned away by breeders because NONE of that is true.  Around here, there is NO excuse for going to a pet store to buy a puppy.  Actually, I think the reason I can't think of anyone I know who's done this is b/c the pet store dogs are way more expensive and their selection is so limited in comparison to the shelters, breeders, and rescue groups.  So again, no reason to go to a pet store.

As for the earlier comments about Gina, since she is not around to defend herself I want to say that my experience with her has been exactly the opposite.  DH is the poster child for JQP (inexperienced, uneducated, just wants a dog to play fetch in the yard and sit on his lap, has no plans for formal obedience, etc) and he wants a Beagle.  We PMed Gina and not ONCE did she say we could not get a Beagle b/c we are JQP or make us feel unworthy.  No, in fact, after I described our situation as honestly as possible she said DH sounds like a good match for a Beagle.  She sent me lots of links to check out and links to breeders in our area.  She did not discourage us from going to a responsible breeder for a pet quality Beagle.

As for constantly trying to lump puppy mills and responsible breeders into one group, I do not see the point.  to me that's like saying fair trade manufacturing and child slave labor should be discussed within the same context.  Ha!  JQP is not as dumb as they are made out to be in this thread.  I have met enough "normal" people just looking for a nice family dog who had enough sense not to run off to the pet store or the puppy mill to know that there's no good excuse for that.  I've spent less than 2 minutes explaining responsible breeding vs. commercial breeding to a few people and they get it.  A lightbulb goes off and some even remark "gee I can't believe we even considered going to the pet store!".  There's no reason to think that JQP is so dumb that we have to have puppy mills for them.