Vaccine Help

No you weren't missing anything -- my concern would be are they vaxing for lepto twice?

It's not a stupid question -- when we picked up Tink - that vet clinic had diagnosed her with sarcops on intake.  Their 'standard' treatment for sarcops is Revolution. 

Fine.  EXCEPT they were also treating her for demodex with massive doses of ivermectin.  The dose of ivermectin she was taking was about 10 times the "dose" given of ivermection to kill .... **sarcops**.

so they treated her twice for the same thing.  And wanted the Revolution dosed AGAIN 2 weeks after it was first given "because that's the protocol for sarcops".

She was taking the ivermectin (at 10 times the dose used to kill sarcops given usually given either every 7 or 14 days) on a *****daily***** basis.

Anyone want to mathematically figure out how many times they were treating sarcops?

I've seen such stuff happen.  The dogs are given the combo shot routinely and then they decide there is a lepto scare (or someone wants to be "safe";) and they give that shot AGAIN after the combo shot has already been administered.

And Lori -- your assumptions are good.  Part of it is that it *might* be an accumulation of a lifelong series of annual (or twice annual) vaccines.  But on the other paw -- a dog that is 7 or 8 is now a 'senior' dog -- the immune system and metabolism start to slow down ... aging causes some weakness. 

So is it that it's a lifelong accumulation ... or simply an accumulation when the dog is weakest? 

There's no way to answer that on an individual basis.  Simply because it's greater than just the mathematical probability that this or that "caused" something and it goes to the health of the individual animal.  How strong is the liver and kidneys (which filter toxins from the body), how good is the immune system generally and breed-specifically ...

This is why vets and doctors discuss things in the terms of 'trends' rather than specifics.  This is where "medical opinion" differs. 

BUT Lori said a whole huge great big MOUTHFUL when she said "after what I've been thru these past two months I will never ..."

You don't even have to say the word "vaccinate" or whatever ... simply because most of the time those of us who are the most vocal ARE so because of our experiences. 

See, you wind up feeling a little stupid ... or a little misled ... or a little weary ... or a little angry ... or a little letdown ... **because** you didn't make a different choice.  And particularly so if you've heard others "warning" over and over again not to do THAT thing but you've decided not to listen because ... well, this is what your vet does or says or you've never known anyone who ... or ... whatever.

But trust me ... when you go thru heck with a dog who has knocked at death's door but who has been able to turn around and **make it** all of a sudden you say "after what I've been thru I will never ..."

My point is to the original poster and to anyone else reading this casually (or not so casually) -- I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and scream "You're killing your dog".  I think that is absolutely heinous (and I've heard folks do that).  Because all ANY of us are trying to do is ... well, do the *best* we can for our dogs. 

And sometimes that means we learn by doing ... sometimes that means we just plain make the best judgment call we can.  And sometimes you decide to be a little more cautious.

 My husband is not nearly as suspicous and distrustful of human doctors as I am.  Altho he's also one of those people who is intrinsically healthy and never has to take a pill for anything.

But HIS feeling (and he IS British and that does color this) is "they don't give humans vaccinations every year of their lives ... you get certain vaccines when you're young and they are expected to last.  Isn't it rather strange that they have this whole separate theory for dogs?  That somehow THEY need annuals when humans don't?"

It's food for thot anyway.

calliecritturs

But HIS feeling (and he IS British and that does color this) is "they don't give humans vaccinations every year of their lives ... you get certain vaccines when you're young and they are expected to last.  Isn't it rather strange that they have this whole separate theory for dogs?  That somehow THEY need annuals when humans don't?"

It's food for thot anyway.

That is my belief as well. I stopped Maze's vaccines due to a reaction but even if she didn't have that, I'd still wouldn't continue after the puppy shots.

I've always felt dogs are over vaccinated and they don't get a chance to build the immune system.

Yep, He has been vax'd for lepto 2x, once in the combo and then seperate. Plus he is vax'd in the fall so his shot isn't even lasting to summer when lepto is most active. Plus he gets the corona shot every year, and it's a puppy disease! I think I may start searching for a new vet after today. He needs his rabies so I will bring him in today, but I feel pretty let down. I always figured that the vet would know best. I'm just glad I came to this site and realized what should be done while Salem is pretty young and Cheza is still a pup.

I know how you feel.  I always read on here that people didn't vaccinate for a lot of things.  And, whenever I took her to her last vet they would give me a really good argument as to why I should.  And, they'd always say you can't believe what you read on the internet all the time.  They made me feel like I wasn't doing the right thing if I didn't give them.  Boy was I wrong because her current vet has a much different mentality about vaccines and she is not a holistic vet.  I kick myself because I was trying to be a GOOD dog mom and now I felt like I did the opposite in a way.

Salem and Cheza are so lucky to have you!

 All human vaccines provide protection for at least ten years I don't see why dogs should be different. I'm not sure why anyone would bother doing the expensive titers; just full puppy shots, one year booster, and rabies as required by law should be sufficient. I don't think it is harmful to vaccinate more often despite the internet rumors- adverse reactions are generally not that bad and are extremely rare- but why waste your money?

I titered Cherokee last year, and since they were nice and high, I don't think I'll do them again for a couple years at least..though my vet office is trying to tell me to do then again this year. I figure if her titers are high from being vacc'd several years ago, they're not gonna suddenly change that much in a year. But they weren't that expensive. $46 for parvo and distemper.

mudpuppy

I don't think it is harmful to vaccinate more often despite the internet rumors- adverse reactions are generally not that bad and are extremely rare-

It's not an internet rumor Mudpuppy.  My dog isn't the only one who is suffering from an auto immune disease that may have been brought on by vaccines.  The vet told me right out not to vaccinate her any further.  It's not a rumor.  Please, I wish it was. 

mudpuppy

I don't think it is harmful to vaccinate more often despite the internet rumors- adverse reactions are generally not that bad and are extremely rare- but why waste your money?

Given that the vet hospital assn has changed ITS protocols and every vet I've spoken to is dismayed at the huge increase in auto-immune diseases they are dealing wtih ... it's not an internet rumor and I honestly don't think most honest vets are saying that at this point.

mudpuppy

I'm not sure why anyone would bother doing the expensive titers

Mostly we do because I have to have "paper" to do pet therapy and the titers suffice for that.  I wouldn't do it annually if I didn't need that.

there's no proof these things are caused by vaccines and until it is resoundingly proven I won't believe it- the only serious vaccine adverse reaction that has been proven is sarcomas in cats. All sorts of internet rumors still fly around about autism being caused by vaccines when that has been resoundingly disproven.

OK, well I hope you never have to suddenly believe it like I did.

mudpuppy

there's no proof these things are caused by vaccines and until it is resoundingly proven I won't believe it- the only serious vaccine adverse reaction that has been proven is sarcomas in cats. All sorts of internet rumors still fly around about autism being caused by vaccines when that has been resoundingly disproven.

I meant to respond to this a long time ago, and just remembered. I have seen several mentions of the link between autoimmune diseases and vaccines from actual medical people, not internet rumors. I just googled "autoimmune triggers" and this is the second site to come up. Many things trigger autoimmune issues including viruses and vaccinations. This is accepted in the medical community. If you google "autoimmune triggers vaccines" you will find more info.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16126512

"The etiology of autoimmune diseases is still not clear but genetic, immunological, hormonal and environmental factors are considered to be important triggers. Most often autoimmunity is not followed by clinical symptoms unless an additional event such as an environmental factor favors an overt expression.Many environmental factors are known to affect the immune system and may play a role as triggers of the autoimmune mosaic.Infections: bacterial, viral and parasitic infections are known to induce and exacerbate autoimmune diseases, mainly by the mechanism of molecular mimicry. This was studied for some syndromes as for the association between SLE and EBV infection, pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorders associated with streptococcal infection and more. Vaccines, in several reports were found to be temporally followed by a new onset of autoimmune diseases. The same mechanisms that act in infectious invasion of the host, apply equally to the host response to vaccination. It has been accepted for diphtheria and tetanus toxoid, polio and measles vaccines and GBS. Also this theory has been accepted for MMR vaccination and development of autoimmune thrombocytopenia, MS has been associated with HBV vaccination.Occupational and other chemical exposures are considered as triggers for autoimmunity. A debate still exists about the role of silicone implants in induction of scleroderma like disease.Not only foreign chemicals and agents have been associated with induction of autoimmunity, but also an intrinsic hormonal exposure, such as estrogens. This might explain the sexual dimorphism in autoimmunity.Better understanding of these environmental risk factors will likely lead to explanation of the mechanisms of onset and progression of autoimmune diseases and may lead to effective preventive involvement in specific high-risk groups.So by diagnosing a new patient with autoimmune disease a wide anamnesis work should be done."

This next site, the Lancet, (NOT an internet rumor publication) does admit a link between vaccination and autoimmune disease. They also downplay the link, rightly, because viruses themselves are more likely to cause autoimmune than vaccines. They specifically mention a couple vaccines that were changed because of links to autoimmune disease.

http://image.thelancet.com/extras/02art9340web.pdf

Now in dogs, there is nobody paying for studies to prove links to autoimmune issues and force a change of the vaccine. Viruses like distemper and parvo are much more serious than the very slight possibility of acquiring autoimmune from a vaccine. But once your dog has immunity to parvo and distemper, why take the chance????????