Question about the reserves (ottoluv)

Ron, I think you should re-read what I posted, you are countering points I never made. If she is fired, it is because she is incompetent as a physician period which has nothing to do with her military service. She has been incompetent since the day she arrived. Again, if you read what I wrote, you will see that the flight school training did not have to be done and she requested it without going over it with her medical training program. It's so wierd to me that people will post a half page response that has nothing to do with the question asked. My origonal question is what is the commitment for reserves while in medical training which was answered by her office (eventually after ten calls). Not once was it ever said she would be fired because of a military commitment. Don't make assumptions and read prior to posting. Thank you to those of you who actually read my question and responded to in instead of attempting to make a simple thread about a horrible doctor trying to get out of work in to a soapbox.

I just wanted to say that I'm very embarrassed at my assumption that she was a nurse and not a Dr. Seriously - shame on me

 

LOL, no problem ;) I honestly hadn't even noticed. You have no idea how many times a day patients call me nurse, even after I do procedures on them, the female=nurse steriotype is very common. I take it as a compliment since nurses are generally seen as more caring then doctors. It is VERY difficult to fire a resident and it takes a significant amount of paper trail to do so which we have been working on for over a year apparently.

 

ottoluv

  Remember that training doctors are paid by the government as well and without them the american medical system would fall apart since there are over 100,000 residents treated as slave labor all over the country taking care of you and your family memebers

I am appalled, disgusted and offended by that remark right there. Golly gee you have a high opinion of people outside the medical profession now don't you?

ottoluv

 It's ONLY about a woman who is trying to get out a full month of work and be paid for it. FYI, this girl is trying to be a cosmetic surgeon. I'm sure there is a lot of need in the military for face lifts and implants. She isn't doing plastic and reconstructive like me, but cosmetic.

So what I am reading is that what you do is more important than what she wants to do? If your going to be in charge of people, scheduling, assigning task, placement, vacation and what not, you really need to removed personal feelings.

Why is it less important to the military? They are just people like us that also serve the country for us, IMO they should have whatever is available on the outside as we do. If that includes a tummy tuck, so be it.

 

ottoluv

People in the military are not unlike the rest of us, they need to follow laws and abide by contracts as well.

I agree with that statement 100 %.

I re-read your posts just in case I missed something. Are you saying that her commander specifically told you that his flight training wasn't necessary? That doesn't sound right, for two reasons. A) He's already approved it which means that there is a reason to complete the training. B) What's he doing telling a civilian about military matters.

Secondly, while that may be 40 hours of training, it does not relieve her of regular duty shifts, such as 8 hours on med evac, which will also have update training. Or is the commander telling you that she only has to do the 40 hours of training with no duty shifts? The commander should be relieved of that command if he's giving out schedules and other military secrets. And a lot of the training is not just sitting in an air conditioned office sipping on Latte Mochas from Starbucks. In uniform, with shined boots at muster, flight training will require extra safety gear. Do you have an idea what it's like to insert a central line while in uniform and carrying your med bags on the deck of a UH-1 (Huey) or even a Blackhawk if it's the only thing available lifting up and to the right at a 45 degree angle, under fire, with the noise of the blades and a doctor in comm link with you asking for vitals for diagnosis and you've been needing to go to the bathroom for an hour, which isn't helped by the evasive maneuvers of military aircraft? When I think of a vacation, that's not it.

But I can see that all of this actually mute or academic. You have already made up your mind that she is conning you. You just want to know what legal standpoint you have based on the requirements of reserve commitments. In which case, in spite of or in addition to whatever viewpoints we have here, you're better off letting the lawyers handle it.

As you said, you haven't had this problem with other military residents before. Just this one case. Are you sure this is the hill to die on?

As you have said, she still has residency requirements independent of her military service. Well, it works both ways. And I can't see how it's vacation for her to volunteer more time for extra training when she still has the residency requirements to fullfill. It sounds like more work, even if her logged training time is only 40 hours. There are additional hours spent studying and practicing, not just the logged hours of flight time.

But you do whatever you think you have to do, as you will. You just won't always get the support you are expecting. That's also part of the job of a commander. It's lonely at the top, whether in charge of a company of troops or in charge of counting money.

 

ottoluv

there are over 100,000 residents treated as slave labor all over the country taking care of you and your family memebers

This is very true.  I've worked as a medical secretary for many years now.  And, over those years I've come to know a lot of residents--I did almost 6 years in a hospital.  I ended up friends with a lot of residents when they came thru in their rotations because they'd be around the same age as me.  And, a lot of them weren't from around here.  They worked so many hours, to the point of exhaustion sometimes.  You could see it in their eyes and many times we'd have to change plans, etc. 

Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent, LOL!

ron2

Are you saying that her commander specifically told you that his flight training wasn't necessary? That doesn't sound right, for two reasons. A) He's already approved it which means that there is a reason to complete the training. B) What's he doing telling a civilian about military matters.

 

I'm actually not surprised at all that he would share this information. It's extremely important that the Reserves and the civilian community work closely. If this relationship didn't work to everyone's satisfaction, you'd see less civilian employers willing to hire Reservists. Flight School isn't mandatory, so I'm sure although he'd approved her to go, it wasn't a requirement. I think the location and schedules for Flight School are quite public, so he wouldn't have been revealing anything classified.

 

I don't see what everyone's problem is. Companies have to give you the time off to serve your commitment to the reserves, and ottoluv already said that's going to happen, so debating it is a moot point. It causes scheduling difficulties for everyone else - ottoluv is allowed to be annoyed by that as are this woman's coworkers who will have to work extra hours, especially since this is training she volunteered for over and above her one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year commitment that was known at the time she was hired. If she were deployed that would obviously be out of her control, but she chose to do this, this was not required service.

Companies do not have to pay you for time not worked, for whatever reason, military or otherwise. The military will be paying this person while she does her training, why should the hospital have to pay her too? They will have to pay other people to do the work she would have done if she were there, so they'd be paying twice. I know most small businesses wouldn't be able to afford that, I work for one.

If she chooses to use vacation pay to cover any portion of her time off work while she serves, she can, ottoluv already said so. She is not being forced to, however, and nobody is stating that military service is vacation. So why is everyone all upset?

My best friend retired from the Marine Corp. During the time she worked for our company she was in the reserves for 12 or 13 years. We didn't pay her salary when she was gone for two weeks, sometimes she used vacation pay since she was paid less by the MC than we paid her, but if she didn't have enough vacation time left, it was unpaid leave. All perfectly legal.

Ottoluv:

You’re in California (as am I), where the legal climate is more pro-employee and employers have to tread carefully.  It’s been a while since I handled employment law, but here are a few basic ideas to consider:

1.        In California, there are over 30 grounds for an employee to be “protected”, military service being one of them.   An employer will have a tougher time firing an employee who is protected (see # 3 below).

2.       I believe that in your person’s case,  the employer must give her leave to do military training upon her submission of suitable proof as to the duration of her military leave (copy of letter, orders, etc.).  But normally the employer is not obligated to continue her pay while she’s in training, unless an agreement was made to that effect (gosh, I hope not in her case – such an agreement would be very rare).  Upon the completion of her military commitment, the employer is obligated to re-hire her.  I think that your comment “hold her check” simply means that her paycheck will be suspended while she is away in training, right?

3.       If she will eventually be fired because of poor performance, this needs to be documented starting yesterday with write-ups in the file, personal evaluations, etc.  The negative evaluation should be in writing signed by the employee (the employee would only acknowledge that they have received the evaluation and any inference that they agree with it should be avoided, otherwise the employee may refuse to sign).  One problem I see is that she won’t be fired until the end of the year, which may create the impression that her performance isn’t that bad after all.  So to counter that impression, document, document, document.  Once an employee shows a prima facie case of wrongful termination (she was an ok employee, then she went for military service, and when she returned she was fired), the burden of proof shifts to the employer to refute her claims.  This can be very difficult anyway (have you ever tried to prove a negative?) but without a long paper trail showing poor performance, it will become impossible.

Above all, follow the advise of your HR staff and employment attorney.  Since this is potentially a tough case, you and your boss should discuss it with them before taking any definitive action.

(Usual disclaimer about this is not legal advice, consult your local attorney, etc.:-))

 

Is she in the Reserves/National Guard or ROTC or both? There is some differences between the legal requirements for employers between Reserve/National Guard obligations and ROTC obligations.  I cannot really address the particulars of this case because their is some information that is missing such as what type of orders she is under...  So I will make some general comments please do not think that they are in any way aimed at you or meant to question your or your employers commitment to those that serve.  I am retired military after almost 25 years of active duty.  My son is currently in collage and in the ROTC.  He is also in the National Guard.  He has training commitments to both organizations.  This does make it very difficult on employers so he is finding that some places will not hire him while others are more understanding and willing to work with him.  Prior to my retiring I regularly worked side by side with our reserve components and in fact served my tour in the "sand box" with a "reserve" unit.  The commitment that those in the Reserve/National Guard have for their Service and their Country is truly amazing!  These are people that are willing to place their civilian lives on hold at drop of a hat in order to serve their country.  In order for them to do their military jobs they sometimes must attend training that goes beyond the standard "one weekend per month two weeks per year". Thankfully there are also some very understanding employers out there that supported them in their service.  By law an employer must hold their job for them but there were some employers that went above what was required and did such things as continue paying them at their full salary or at least pay the difference between their civilian pay and their military pay.  I salute those employers and thank them for their commitment to our service men and women.  It is never easy on employers to deal with the added burdens that having employees in the Reserve/National Guard presents but remember without the Reserve/National Guard  our safety and security will be at stake.

I was going to bow out of this, as it really is a legal matter. And my military experience is limited to having family and friends in the military all of my life. Funny thing, when I was 10 years old, I had a military id because my 1st step-father was in the Navy and I had to have one to go on base. Anyway, I think your reply was good, and luv3dogs was good and Mark's reply was good, too.

And as patriotic as I am, I'm not trying to browbeat Ottoluv, either. So, I agree with luv3dogs that if the employee is going to be terminated for poor job performance, then that is a civilian issue that had better be documented. And it can't have anything to do with hours missed due to military service. The suspicion that the employee volunteered for what some are describing as non-essential training as a way to get out of 80 hour work-weeks is beside the point. BTW, I think it's unfair and unsafe to make people work 80 hours a week, especially when my health is in their hands. I would prefer that they be well rested and alert, but I don't get my way all the time.

Also, I was just wondering, how is it that learning to do medical work while aboard an airship, be it helicopter or plane, in the military is unnecessary. James Hardy Reeves, Master Sargeant, served in Viet Nam, 1968 - 69 would beg to differ. His plane was shot down. While on the ground, his crew was ambushed by VC. He has a 6 inch scar on his belly where a VC got him. And if it had not been for a medical person trained aboard combat aircraft, he would not have made it back and eventually met my mom, etc. Just a musing, a don't expect anyone to answer.

 

Marklf

Is she in the Reserves/National Guard or ROTC or both? There is some differences between the legal requirements for employers between Reserve/National Guard obligations and ROTC obligations.  I cannot really address the particulars of this case because their is some information that is missing such as what type of orders she is under...  So I will make some general comments please do not think that they are in any way aimed at you or meant to question your or your employers commitment to those that serve.  I am retired military after almost 25 years of active duty.  My son is currently in collage and in the ROTC.  He is also in the National Guard.  He has training commitments to both organizations.  This does make it very difficult on employers so he is finding that some places will not hire him while others are more understanding and willing to work with him.  Prior to my retiring I regularly worked side by side with our reserve components and in fact served my tour in the "sand box" with a "reserve" unit.  The commitment that those in the Reserve/National Guard have for their Service and their Country is truly amazing!  These are people that are willing to place their civilian lives on hold at drop of a hat in order to serve their country.  In order for them to do their military jobs they sometimes must attend training that goes beyond the standard "one weekend per month two weeks per year". Thankfully there are also some very understanding employers out there that supported them in their service.  By law an employer must hold their job for them but there were some employers that went above what was required and did such things as continue paying them at their full salary or at least pay the difference between their civilian pay and their military pay.  I salute those employers and thank them for their commitment to our service men and women.  It is never easy on employers to deal with the added burdens that having employees in the Reserve/National Guard presents but remember without the Reserve/National Guard  our safety and security will be at stake.

She is in the army reserves and you guys, the military has a special program for physicians in training which pays for your loans, gives you a monthly stipend pays for books and learning materials, and still allows you to do the residency of your choice. This is different from those that do their residencies at a military hospital. The military match is in december and the regular match is in march. It's entirely different then being in the reserves for a normal person since the requirements for surgical/medical training are as intense as being in the military and the military is actually quite reasonable in regards to this. It honestly isn't a burden having military people since they are not required to do anything that conflicts with their training. What a normal human does is during their research year or after their residency is over they do optional activities like she is doing now so that they don't have to make up time in their training. Your second year in surgical residency is ICU heavy. ICU is increadibly demanding and time consuming, she thought she could get out of a month of ICU by doing this apparently since she was scheduled to be in there that month, or so that is what she told one of the other residents. She can do whatever she wants, but she just found out that she will be kept three weeks after her residency is supposed to be over to fulfill the mandatory time/rotation requirement for the american college of surgeons to sit for her boards. You must be boarded to practice surgery in any hospital around the country obviously. Again, it has nothing to do with serving your country, it has to do with a person who loves to spin things in her favor at the pain of others. She has done this on multiple occasions over the past year and honestly, I'm not shocked that she is using her military commitment to do the same. Ron, I'm not even going to answer your questions as again they have nothing to do with the situation at hand. She is not going on to do a military career, she is going to be a COSMETIC SURGEON and serve her commitment to the reserves. What she is doing is not going to further a military career as that is NOT what she is doing for the millionth time. I love people complaining about the hours I work, then in the other side of their mouth don't want to pay for healthcare which would increase the amount of money so that hospitals could be adequately staffed revlieving the burden on residents. VOMIT........

ottoluv

I love people complaining about the hours I work, then in the other side of their mouth don't want to pay for healthcare which would increase the amount

I was going to agree that you might have a problem with this employee, in which case, document her mistakes and offer her resolution, one way or another.

BTW, I pay for my own healthcare. I pay the medical insurance. I've paid cash for ER visits. I've paid my co-pay at the dentist's office. And because I pay my own way is why I haven't been able to afford dental care in quite some time until this year. Since the regular insurance card for me is not here, I have paid full price for the Lortab scrip I've had. So, how's about beating me up on who's a burden to the healthcare system.

Only in your last post did you make it clear, at least to me, that she has done this sort of thing before, trying to get out of a particular requirement. Being "shady" wasn't descriptive enough. But thanks for clarifying. But I wonder what was your intent. It sounds like this is not a military issue but an hospital issue. I don't think she has technically broken the military code of justice, other than failing to reconcile her residency requirements with her training requirements.

I realize you don't particularly like me right now and I can live with that. And I realize you may not care to see things from my perspective. One of my major regrets is that I could not serve in the military, thanks to a medical disqualification. But I will always be a patriot and have an abiding respect and admiration for military service. And I think that has clouded this issue for me. Fire the woman but do it on the grounds of failure to abide by hospital policy and procedure.