Training class frustration--How to handle this?

Liesje

I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.

corgipower

Liesje

I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.

I do to a point. I can understand a trainer who teaches positive motivation training only disallowing prong and choke collars.

What about the EasyWalk?  Also a corrective device.  Dog pulls, dog gets pinched across the chest.  Or the GL.  Dog pulls, dog gets head turned back. 

Our trainer will recommend a GL first, but that's because it's what she has used the most and is most experienced with.  I try to avoid using the GL b/c I see so many people use it wrong it makes me cringe, and also in my experience it has been the hardest tool to transition away from (ie, dog is "perfect" on the GL, but it all goes to the crapper the second he's back on the flat). 

Liesje

corgipower

Liesje

I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.

I do to a point. I can understand a trainer who teaches positive motivation training only disallowing prong and choke collars.

 

What about the EasyWalk?  Also a corrective device.  Dog pulls, dog gets pinched across the chest.  Or the GL.  Dog pulls, dog gets head turned back. 

Exactly. And the simple fact is, no matter how it can be dismissed as owner incompetence, many dogs find head halters instinctively aversive. That isn't positive in my book, but I don't believe that mild aversives have no place in training.

A prong is no better or worse than a GL. Use what works best for a particular dog, in a particular situation. 

Dog_ma

Liesje

corgipower

Liesje

I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.

I do to a point. I can understand a trainer who teaches positive motivation training only disallowing prong and choke collars.

 

What about the EasyWalk?  Also a corrective device.  Dog pulls, dog gets pinched across the chest.  Or the GL.  Dog pulls, dog gets head turned back. 

 

Exactly. And the simple fact is, no matter how it can be dismissed as owner incompetence, many dogs find head halters instinctively aversive. That isn't positive in my book, but I don't believe that mild aversives have no place in training.

A prong is no better or worse than a GL. Use what works best for a particular dog, in a particular situation. 

I have used a flat collar, regular harness, GL and a prong. The GL was the one thing that distressed Kord to the point of absolute misery. I felt like I was torturing my dog because someone said it was "better" so I threw it away. The prong stayed and will be used whenever my husband has to walk, or control him on leash, due to his disability and balance issue's, Kord can and has overpowered him, even escaped from him once, but came when called. It is not something either he or I want to mess with.

In just the past 3 weeks I have transitioned Kord to a martingale. He is doing pretty good on it and I am pleased with the results. With that said, I too cannot imagine why trainers insist on a certain kind of collar over another. With a young puppy, it is different, with an older dog, who has an established history with the owner, I would think owner preference would be considered.

I would talk to the person you originally spoke with, express your concerns, if you cannot reach some amicable agreement in regards to the prong, withdraw and ask for your money back.

I guess I really feel lucky. Rex was a basket case in class because he was unsocialized and terrified of everyone and everything except me.  He is a big dog and he is solid muscle.  He wasn't being bad, he was scared to death.  He would run forward, spin around, back up, explode. I went to our first class with a flat collar and had brought along a choke collar just in case. The problem with the choke collar is that he would still pull like crazy and because of his hair it didn't release well. I did end up putting it on him during class, as did a few other people on their dogs, and our instructor told us that she hates the use of a choke collar. She actually suggested a light prong for my dog and I was, at first, resistant. I used one of hers and Rex was like a different dog.  I barely had to touch it - it got his attention and helped him to focus.  Within just 3 classes he was able to move back to a flat collar - he knew everything was okay and he was able to keep his focus on me.  But without those first couple of classes where we used a prong, I don't think we would have gotten to that point.  Class would have been miserable for both of us. Was he just 'reacting to pain' as suggested?  Perhaps.  But is that necesarily a bad thing?  It enabled him to learn to listen.  I think it's better than constantly pulling and putting all that pressure on their trachea, especially with a choke type collar, but even with a flat collar.  It's better than having my shoulder pulled out of it's socket.  All I know is that I now have a dog that excels at obediance and that is now a joy to take for a walk. A collar, any type of collar, is a tool.  Used correctly your dog can really benefit and learn.  So I would say that you know your dog best -  if you want to use a prong, pursue the issue.  Worked wonders for us.  And I have now worked with a couple of other dogs who people had trouble with; one of them was like Rex and we did go to a prong to get his attention and to help him to learn to focus.  He is now walking like a good boy on his normal flat collar.  Right or wrong, it sure has worked for me.

corgipower

Mind you...I don't disagree with either of you on the prong vs GL issue. I don't much like GLs and I do use prongs. I'm just talking someone who is a positive motivation trainer staying away from the correction collars.

Right, and I'm saying in general I never understood how a "positive" trainer can be so gung-ho about a GL when most dogs seem to find them just as aversive, if not moreso, than a prong (probably why they work so well!).  My main trainer is a "positive" trainer but we have no blanket requirements about what tools we can use, only that the tool is appropriate for the specific training goal, the tool is fair and safe, and we are rewarding the dog for correct behavior way more often than giving corrections.  I think she prefers the dogs come in on a flat or martingale so SHE can asses the "problems" and what tools SHE would recommend (after all, if a person has already decided on a tool, then why bother paying a trainer for input?), but she won't totally disregard one type of tool while recommending another when they really work the same way. 

It is against Petsmart's policy for a dog to wear a metal training collar in any of their classes, and if corporate knew it was happening, the trainer would be fired, on the spot. I have been told this, repeatedly, by Petsmart trainers. I used to work for Petsmart, and I was invited to bring Emma to classes, for demos and extra socialization. I was told, though, in no uncertain terms, that she would not be allowed into the training ring in her chain collar. She needed to be wearing a flat collar, or one of their various "devices", or a  fabric martingale.

I put an Easy Walk on her, for a bit. I actually special ordered one  (because I wanted it in electric lime!). She hated it, with a passion. I never tried a head collar on her. She gets downright goofy when she sees her toggle choke, though. It definitely depends on the dog. I'd find somewhere to train that allows your choice of collar.  

corgipower

Liesje

I don't get trainers that really push one tool over the others.

I do to a point. I can understand a trainer who teaches positive motivation training only disallowing prong and choke collars. Also, at petsmart it isn't the trainer that's pushing one tool over the others, it's the petsmart corporation, somebody sitting in an office who decided that all dogs should wear GLs.

Oh, it goes a lot further up the food chain than just the Petsmart corporation.

GLs and other facial contact devices seem to be the first tool of choice of the "positive onlys/purely positives/truly dog friendlies". I wonder if the fact that a few of the APDT leaders promote and do demo tapes for at least one of the manufacturers, has anything to do with it. Me thinks someone is on the take, perhaps?

Talk about blind faith following...regardless of neck injuries, regardless of what other experts say about these devices, regardless of what the actual directions for the use of the things indicate, regardless of how violently a dog reacts to them, etc...

Gentle, non-violent, and dog friendly, my butt.

And these are the folks who scream "shut-down" and "learned-helplessness" regarding other tools?

Give me a break.

jennie_c_d

It is against Petsmart's policy for a dog to wear a metal training collar in any of their classes, and if corporate knew it was happening, the trainer would be fired, on the spot. I have been told this, repeatedly, by Petsmart trainers.

That's interesting.  This Petsmart must be full of rebels then, because I have seen metal collars used frequently.   When Sally went to beginner class there a different trainer allowed me to use a prong.  In Jack's puppy class there were a few owners that did not want head halters on their pups so they were allowed to use choke collars.  During a private lesson I saw recently while I was there the trainer had a prong on the dog getting the lesson.

Sigh.  I guess I might just have to call around some more and find someplace.

BTW--I'm glad Jack is not the only dog who dislikes the Easy Walk.  When I tell people that I feel like they think I'm full of it, but he really did not like it.  It was fitted correctly by a trainer and everything.  What's strange is that he is normally pretty tolerant of most things.  The dog will wear a hat or a Halloween costume all day long but not an Easy Walk or head halter. 

Emma tolerates *everything*. She gets groomed 2-3 times a week. She wears hats, costumes, silly collars, coats, sweaters, bathing suits... She's even worn shoes! She has at least 3 harnesses that she *likes* to wear. She's  totally used to that sort of thing. I put the Easy Walk on her, for a casual walk... the second it even slightly tightened, she stopped moving. She gave me the "MOM HELP!" look. I told her to give it a shot, and encouraged her. She moved stiffly, and... she wasn't pulling at all, but the dog was NOT happy. I kept up with it for over a week of daily walks. She could not stand it. She started ducking and moving away when I tried to put it on.  

Angelique

Talk about blind faith following...regardless of neck injuries, regardless of what other experts say about these devices, regardless of what the actual directions for the use of the things indicate, regardless of how violently a dog reacts to them, etc...

Gentle, non-violent, and dog friendly, my butt.

Talk about blind faith following...regardless of neck injuries, regardless of what other experts say about these devices, regardless of what the actual directions for the use of the things indicate, regardless of how violently a dog reacts to them, etc...

Gentle, non-violent, and dog friendly, my butt.

 

yup. I've seen so many dogs looking utterly miserable in these head-halters. I at one point under pressure from trainers wasted six months trying to convince my dogs to wear them- these dogs love walks and they would run and hide when I picked up the GL's; same dogs go nuts with excitement when I pick up ecollars or martingales or any other walk-related equipement.  Head-halters  were everywhere and pushed heavily by trainers up until three years ago when they suddenly lost favor and vanished. To the relief of dogs everywhere. Anyway, the club I train at bans chokers, prongs, and ecollars on the premises. Most people use martingales haven't seen a single head-halter in use there and they discourage use of the easywalk harness during actual training but it's ok for coming and going. I wish they would allow prongs, I've seen several dogs who look like they would benefit from one.