Art or child porn?

sillysally

 Then the government has the oh-so-pleasant task of defining what art is and isn't, which is not something I think is their business to do.  I would much prefer they said "Art or not, these cannot be displayed" rather then try to make up a legal definition of art.   

 

Yeah, but that's pretty much what has already happened with this case. The world-renowned artist has been charged. I'm not sure what with exactly, but something to do with child porn.

And this line is already being pushed everywhere and has for a long time. Ever had a look at the nude pictures on deviantArt? DA policy is mature content is allowed, but nothing that is R rated or more. How do you rate art? Everyone has a different take and a lot of people take advantage of the mature content policy to post things I would consider soft porn or even eroticism. You can report it if it offends you and I guess they probably tell the artist to take it down if they think the complaint was fair.

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about pedophiles, but I think the idea that if people could sell artsy nudes to pedophiles we'd have a big problem on our hands is a little unrealistic. I think this because essentially they can already do this. If a particularly artistically aware pedophile wanted a Bill Henson "Bravehearts" print of a naked adolescent girl, they could no doubt get one. And I highly doubt Bill Henson is the only artist in the world that depicts nude adolescents in his art. If pedophiles were into small children sitting naked in buckets of flowers, well, they never need to tap into the underground world of child porn, do they? Which brings me to the second reason why I think this logic is flawed. If I were a pedophile, I imagine I would know where to get illegal child porn that was far more to my taste than artistically, non-suggestive teenage nudes. I mean, I could probably even go online and convince a teenager to give it to me. When I was a teenager, another teenage girl I'd never met sent me a series of nude photos of herself that were very suggestive. She thought I was a guy. When I asked her if she normally sent those sorts of photos to girls, she fled and I never heard from her again. As long as there are teenagers with a burning desire to be seen as sexy and beautiful and people who will feed off that need, artistic nudes are a pretty minor deal IMHO.

I don't know if that came across the way I wanted it to, but ultimately what I'm trying to say is it's all there for the taking. I don't think that's good, but it's reality and I doubt it will ever change because surely there will always be teenagers that want to be told they are sexy and adults that want to see naked teenagers. Allowing artsy photos of nude teenagers to be publicly and legally available is a fact that already is, and pedophiles will take advantage of it if it's their thing, or they'll get what they want even more from illegal sources. And I guess this is why I believe we'd all be better off if we were less damning and tried to be more understanding of pedophiles. As society is now, I can imagine that if I were a pedophile, I would hide it away from everyone desperately and feed my needs in secret because I would be so terrified of anyone ever finding out. Wouldn't it be better if they weren't so afraid of us and looked for help BEFORE they did terrible things that would scar children for life? Assuming some would seek help. But anyway, that's an argument I'd rather not get into.

sillysally

IDK, I once asked my husband why men liked boobs so much and he told me it was because "It's something we don't have."  If he considers womens breasts as totally different than what men have then I doubt he's the only one.  He's not stupid, he knows that men have them too, but on women, in his opinion, they are different.

Well than if people truly want to look at male and female breasts as being that different, than it should be no more acceptable for a man to go topless in public or the media than a woman.
 

sillysally

I think that you have confused the desire to be covered up with shame in one's body.  That, I believe, is as HUGE assumption to make about people. 

Perhaps my wording was too strong, but how else am I suppose to describe a country where showing certain parts of your body in public could result in an arrest or ticket.  As for people who consider themself modest, I have no problem with them covering their body up.  Even if nudity was more lax here it would be unlikely for me to walk around naked.  I'm merely arguing from the stand point that I believe people who enjoy letting their skin breath should have more of an opportunity to do so.  I find this country's laws far too uptight about it.

sillysally

I found this quote interesting:  "Benefit, what about having a child that is confident in their own skin?  I would much rather have the kid who would be comfortable posing naked, unafraid of their body then the little girl or boy so ashamed of themselves they can't even look themselves in the mirror."

Both are clearly extremes.  I was merely stating that I would prefer a child unafraid of their body than one like so many people in todays country that don't feel they are good enough as they are.

sillysally

Our society is exposed to more nakedness now then it ever has been in the past, and body image issues like eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder are on the rise. 

By our society I take you mean the United States of America, and none of the other cultures of the world that people came from to make up America.  What proof do you that there is any correlation?  Gas is on the rise and at an all time high... perhaps it is the cause of the rise in body dysmorphic disorders?

sillysally

I think body issues have a lot more to do with what our society considers beautiful and the importance of physical perfection that the media has perpetuated then with not wanting your 12 year old photographed nude.

I never said I thought a child had to model nude to be healthy in mind.  I just don't consider the naked body to be something that has to be hidden and would consider a nude picture the equal to a clothed modeling shot of a child.

Several Galleries are leaving the pictures up. The more I read about this, the more I support the artist. And after reading up on what child porn actually is, AND seeing the photos, it's clear that these CANNOT be classified as "porn". At least not in the US. There are no sexual acts or sexually explicit pictures in the collection.

Child pornography refers to pornographic material depicting children being sexually abused.^[1] Children are sexually abused in the production of child pornography when sexual acts are photographed, and the effects of the abuse are compounded by the wide distribution of the photographs of the abuse.^[2] Legal definitions of child pornography generally refer to any pornography involving a minor, varying by jurisdiction with regards to the age of consent. For research purposes, child pornography often refers to any recording (photograph, video, or audio) of sexual activity involving a prepubescent child.

Wiki

So, call them distasteful, repulsive, sickening, horrible, but they are not (as described by the law of the US) child porn.

I didn't read all the response but here is my view.  It is not porn, it is art.  However, babies who have there naked pictures painted or hung in a gallery can look back years from now and laugh, it just a baby.  But a teenager?  And how on earth does this come about?  Does the parent go to the teen and say, I signed you up for nude photo's what do you think?  Or does the teen go to the parents and say, find me an artist who wants to take nude photos of me?  I know I am being factitious but really.. how does one come about being a nude teen?I can tell you this when I was teen, back in the 70’s I was no saint.  I wore low cuts shirts and jean that were ripped up the sides and only held together with leather string criss crossed like a shoe lace that held the sides together, holes in my pockets with my underwear exposed (boy was I cool!).   My cut offs were shorter than daisy dukes!!  My mom and dad fought over my clothers so much that I use to through a bag out the window with what I wanted to wear so I could change at my friend’s house so my parents won’t know.  But I can tell you this, pose nude..  I would be to self confident and shy to do that.    

I wouldn't buy one.  I would never allow my kids to do it as a minor, but I do think its art not porn as it is present by an artist and gallery and not a kid toucher down the street.

luvmyswissy

And how on earth does this come about?

I was reading a statement from one of his subjects and a few other articles on it this morning.

I never felt uncomfortable.  From a woman who posed 20 years ago, although her photos weren't nude. From what I understand, he's a social person and meets a lot of people. He just asks them if they would like to pose for him.

All the women who have spoken to the Herald about posing for Henson tell a similar story. They paint a picture of a Melbourne artistic community where it is common for artists and photographers to approach parents to ask if their children will be part of their next project.

I love your new signature pics.
 

The ABC, Australia's government-funded television station has made their stance pretty clear with a Bill Henson special that was aired last night showing his work and hearing him and other people talk about it. Having seen an exhibition of his (I think I was actually in LA at the time), the photos I saw were quite beautiful, even the sad ones.

As a hobby artist myself, living with a professional (if commercial) artist, I feel very defensive about an artist's right to expression and to share that expression. On the other hand, if that expression required someone other than me to be hurt emotionally or physically, then there's something wrong with me and I need help. I guess in the end it comes down to the question of whether a teenager is capable of knowing if they are being physically or emotionally hurt.... Do teenagers know? And there's a difference I think between regretting something and being emotionally hurt by it. Regrets teach us. Being emotionally hurt damages us.

corvus

 I guess in the end it comes down to the question of whether a teenager is capable of knowing if they are being physically or emotionally hurt.... Do teenagers know?

I guess that would depend on the age of the  teenager.  There's quite a difference physically, mentally and emotionally between a 13 or 14 year old and an 18 or 19 year old.

Joyce

4IC, thank you! Your references support what I figured, which is that these are teenagers exposed to the art community and not kids being solicited at the local mall. There is generally a different attitude about art and art making, and these sort of teenagers are more apt to appreciate the purpose and enjoy being a part of the process. They are also more likely to have a supportive community (of fellow art appreciators) and less likely to feel regret.

My father was a poet and dabbled with photography. That's obviously where I get my philosophy from. The funny thing is that my sister takes after my mother, and despite similar exposure she is very conservative about modesty and not interested in the arts.