The Elitist Attitude.

Moderator note, 

Hey folks...CULLING is not the topic of this thread...start a new one to discuss it.

This thread is about why people who support responsibly breeding dogs, are considered and labeled as ELITIST by I think...one to 3 people on this forum.

STAY ON TOPIC or start another thread. Very simple. Thank you.

Need a moderation clarification.  Isn't culling one of the defining criteria that distinguishes an Elitist Attitude from the opposite.  The Elitist Attitude says pick (cull/preserve) my pups and all other breeder's pups should be not be picked (culled/discard) even if the qualities of the discard are what the dog owner wants.

Mod clarifications will gladly be made when sent via PM.

*content removed, baiting*

It seems to me that those that are "considered and labeled" elitist are demanding to be the only ones that can define just what constitutes "responsible breeding"!  Is it not "responsible" to breed dogs for the specific purpose that they will serve?  According to several posters that have identified themselves as "elitist" it is not "responsible" breeding to breed for the purpose of producing quality pets but the vast majority of dogs will be just that!  Much has been said on this thread about the GSD breeding and the negative effect that BYB have had on this breed.  I have have had several GSD over the years and am very familiar with that breed and will even agreee that some of the current problems with them are at least exasperated by some of the "BYBs" but by far IMHO the greatest damage to that breed has and is being done by those that are considered to be "ethical" and "responsible" breeders!  Specifically those breeders that are breeding for the "show rings" and I hate to break it to you but agility, schutzhund, flyball, dock jumping.....are all show rings!  That breed has gotten so messed up by these so called "ethical and responsible" breeders that there is a conserted effort by some breeders to save that which was good about the original GSD by creating new breeds!  The Shiloh Shepherd and the American Tundra Shephard are examples of these efforts!  Yet those that actually trying do something about the problem are labled "unethical" and "irresponsible" in their breeding practices by those that support the very practices that led to the problems in the GSD!

Mark

Pwca

I'm not sure how excessively large, soft-tempered, incapable of serious work, less biddable, heavily coated dogs constitute "What's good about the original GSD"

As opposed to the deformed less intelligent dogs being bred for the conformation ring or the aggressive dogs being bred for schutzhund ring or the smaller GSDs being bred for the agility ring? 

Mark

Yes, my wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog is horribly deformed

*FOCL* Gimme a break.

There are some dogs you couldn't pay be a million dollars to feed, but there are more good ones out there than even I give credit for.

And if you're going to make a broad statement about schutzhund GSDs, could you at least make the correct broad statement?  These dogs aren't being bred for excessive aggression...it's over the top prey drive we're dealing with :-p Most of the dogs lack good defense, and the number of civil dogs are becoming fewer...sad really.

And Smaller GSDs being bred for the agility ring? Yeahhhh no.  The dogs that are being bred smaller are Shelties, Aussies, and BCs.  With GSD everybody has the (foolish) mentality of "bigger is better"

Heck...you're lucky to even SEE a GSD in a trial in my area...

There are now THREE Trialing GSDs in my area, I own one of them, and all three are German dogs (two German Showlines and one Working line).  That's IT!  And it's SAD!
 

Marklf

Specifically those breeders that are breeding for the "show rings" and I hate to break it to you but agility, schutzhund, flyball, dock jumping.....are all show rings! 

Mark

 

Wrong.  The difference between the confo ring and performance sports is that in performance the dog is demonstrating its skill stemming from natural abilities.  You can have a lab do very well in the confo ring that doesn't retrieve, while you'd have to have a pretty ball/bumper driven dog (which is how labs are supposed to be--they are *retrievers*) to compete successfully in dock diving.  Actually, as far as labs go, I don't know of anyone who is breeding specifically for dock dogs.  You really don't have to look much further than hunting/field trial lines for a good candidate.

My question regarding what it is about the lab standard that would cause it to be dumped in shelters remains unanswered....... 

Xeph

Yes, my wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog is horribly deformed

I obviously do not know your dog but by just going by what YOU have posted about him it seems a bit contradictory!  On page 22 of this thread YOU described him as;

"He has a CRAPPY front.  There's no way he'd ever pass an AD because when he gaits he elbows in and twists on his pads, causing them to tear.  It's not because he lacks endurance (I band his feet when we go bikejogging now).  He's straight through the shoulder and move from the elbow.  Upper arm is too short and steep. "

Now all of a sudden he is a " wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog " ????  So does the fact that you need "band" his feet so that he can run and his upper arms being too short and steep not constitute a deformity or in your opinion should all GSDs need to have their feet banded to run and have short steep upper arms?

Xeph

And if you're going to make a broad statement about schutzhund GSDs, could you at least make the correct broad statement?  These dogs aren't being bred for excessive aggression...it's over the top prey drive we're dealing with

If you are going to claim I made a "broad statement about schutzhund GSDs" would you at least not add your own words to what I actually said?  I did not use the words "excessive aggression!"!  I did not use the term "excessive" because ANY aggression being bred into the dogs is excessive!  GSDs were intended to be "direct and fearless, eager and alert" but that is NOT the same as aggressive!   GSDs were intended to be a herding breed NOT a prey driven breed.

Mark

Marklf

It seems to me that those that are "considered and labeled" elitist are demanding to be the only ones that can define just what constitutes "responsible breeding"! 

No one's stopping you from having your definition Mark.

Some don't agree, myself included...and they will flat out tell you so...and tell you why. If that bothers you personally...I'm, not sure what to tell you. Very seldom on message boards are opinions voiced in a vacuum, nor are they greeted with thunderous approval from the masses.

ETA: Unless we're discussing cheesecake or chocolate

Marklf

GSDs were intended to be a herding breed NOT a prey driven breed.

Mark

Mark....you are aware that herding behavior is modified..MAN modified...hunt/prey drive right?

Marklf

Xeph

Yes, my wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog is horribly deformed

I obviously do not know your dog but by just going by what YOU have posted about him it seems a bit contradictory!  On page 22 of this thread YOU described him as;

"He has a CRAPPY front.  There's no way he'd ever pass an AD because when he gaits he elbows in and twists on his pads, causing them to tear.  It's not because he lacks endurance (I band his feet when we go bikejogging now).  He's straight through the shoulder and move from the elbow.  Upper arm is too short and steep. "

Now all of a sudden he is a " wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog " ????  So does the fact that you need "band" his feet so that he can run and his upper arms being too short and steep not constitute a deformity or in your opinion should all GSDs need to have their feet banded to run and have short steep upper arms?

Xeph

And if you're going to make a broad statement about schutzhund GSDs, could you at least make the correct broad statement?  These dogs aren't being bred for excessive aggression...it's over the top prey drive we're dealing with

If you are going to claim I made a "broad statement about schutzhund GSDs" would you at least not add your own words to what I actually said?  I did not use the words "excessive aggression!"!  I did not use the term "excessive" because ANY aggression being bred into the dogs is excessive!  GSDs were intended to be "direct and fearless, eager and alert" but that is NOT the same as aggressive!   GSDs were intended to be a herding breed NOT a prey driven breed.

Mark

Mark, you are missing the point.  ALL dogs have faults.  All pedigree dogs have faults against the Standard.  It seem sto me Xeph knows enough about her breed and breeding to know that the fault is serious enough to keep her dog out of the gene pool, regardless of how wonderful he is.  She's not breeding him thinking, "well heck,  his pups will only be PETS any way and they would have wonderful temperaments..." or something along those lines.  

Xeph, please correct me if I am wrong?

Now all of a sudden he is a " wonderfully balanced, proportional, flashy, drivey, showy dog " ????  So does the fact that you need "band" his feet so that he can run and his upper arms being too short and steep not constitute a deformity or in your opinion should all GSDs need to have their feet banded to run and have short steep upper arms?

His front is a FAULT, not a deformity.  Every dog has faults, including your own.  It's unavoidable.  If there were a physically perfect dog out there, we could quit breeding, because we'd finally have what we strive for!

Clearly you don't understand conformation and structure.  Good try though.

Strauss makes up for the fault of front with other physical attributes, such as good drive off the rear, a great head, and a correct topline.

A dog can have horrific reach and drive, but still be balanced.

Also, my dog's lack of a good front has absolutely nothing to do with working drive ;-)
 

Mod request.... 

I'd like to request that GSD specific discussion be taken to a new thread...in Breeds. There might already be such a thread I do not know.

This thread is not about the drives of the breed, conformation of said same etc. I realize these are interesting topics tho.

This thread was again...intended to be about people who consider those who have views on responsible breeding vs BYB dogs....being referred to as "elitist" I think that's getting lost in these side trips into GSD talk and discussing. This was a general discussion about breeding and elitism...if it exists and how those that think it does or does not...might be quantified.

I myself have wandered into discussion of herding and drives and such and I will from here out....do a better job of staying on target and on topic.

Thanks.