Obama's Pastor: XXX XXXX America, U.S. to Blame for 9/11

Just in case anyone missed it, Senator Obama condemned the statements made by the reverend Wright and Wright was removed from Obama's campaign committee.

Obama Condemns Wright's Statements

Obama says: "I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue."

Rev. Wright is no longer on the Obama campaign spiritual advisory committee.

When asked if the decision came from the campaign or from Rev. Wright, Obama was short on specifics, saying only, "I think there was a recognition that he's on the verge of retirement, he's taking a sabbatical and that it was important for him to step out of the spotlight in this situation."

Obama said that he did not know the extent of Rev. Wright's controversial comments until recently. He confirmed that he was not in the church when Rev. Wright made the comments that were reported this week, a point he reiterated in another interview with CNN.

I saw the interview and as interviews go I thought he handled it well, but I am still wondering how he could sit in the same church for 20 years and have no idea this pastor held these views.

 Are we expected to believe that for the past 20 years this guy has gone insane on 3 or 4 Sundays all of which Obama was absent for, and otherwise his messages have been peace and love and Jesus?

 Are we expected that in all the advising this guy has done, before the announcement and during the campaign not one time has he espouced these views? He seemed pretty worked up about them in the clips, his congergation seemed pretty happy about what he was saying, yet here is Obama a donating member for 20 years and every last bit of it went over his head and he had no idea?

 I feel sorry for the guy and I do not believe that he is an outright radical like his pastor, but I cannot believe that he had no idea, and I cannot believe that he does not hold some of these "values" since he sat there for 20 years.

 I have only known my current pastor for 2 years and attend at least 3 Sundays a month and there is no way my pastor could be speaking things like this and I not know it, I would have heard it or I would have heard others speaking about it.

dgriego

I am still wondering how he could sit in the same church for 20 years and have no idea this pastor held these views.

Obama never said he had no idea this pastor held these views. He said he wasn't in the pew during the taped tirades. I have good friends who have FAR different views than I do on some subjects. Even subjects close to my heart. I have been friends for many years with people who have radically different views than me and in talking with them, I have not picked up their values. But I'm not going to turn against them or stop communicating with them because we disagree.

dgriego

Are we expected to believe

I don't think you're expected to believe anything. Read the information and believe what you want. But it was clear to me after hearing the interview and reading about it that Obama knows the pastor is somewhat of a radical. So are some of my family members, in my opinion. That doesn't mean they have enough influence over me to make me agree with their radical thoughts. I still love them and visit with them, though.

FourIsCompany

I have good friends who have FAR different views than I do on some subjects. Even subjects close to my heart. I have been friends for many years with people who have radically different views than me and in talking with them, I have not picked up their values. But I'm not going to turn against them or stop communicating with them because we disagree.

 I also have friends with radically different views.

There is a huge difference in having friends or family that hold radical views and being a member of a church that holds and teachs these views. Any Christian would know this.

  The core beliefs of a church should always be examined and understood prior to membership. For a Christian to maintain membership in a church means that the values of that church are a reflection of their respective values.

If you are a Catholic you could have friends and family that do not believe in the authority of the pope, but if your church starts teaching that the pope has no authority and you continue to sit in the pew, one would assume then that you agree with this teaching.

 Even other faiths are like this. A Muslim can be friends with a non-Muslim but can he attend a church where the teachings that are counter to Islam are openly taught by the leaders?

 The message I have heard from Obama's pastor is a message of hate, Christ is about reconciliation, repentance, renewal, new life, new hope and love of your neighbor and fellow human beings. I heard not one word of Christ in any of the clips I have listened to, instead I heard a hateful bitter man, use the pulpit to preach politics of hatred.

 I have not once in 20 years sat in a pew and heard any of the pastors I have preach any message of hate other than the hatred of sin itself.

 Obama can be friends with persons who hold radical views, even though as a politician this also may come back to haunt him, but membership in church requires embracing that church's doctrines and teachings.

 I have held membership in three different churchs in the last 20 years, every last one of them was very careful about making certain that I and my husband understood the values and goals of the church before we took our membership vows. Statements of belief are a central part of every church. If Obama and his wife are members in good standing and have attended for 20 years and are trying to say that they have done so without ever believing in the message and instead rejecting the message then that is pretty poor Christianity IMO.

dgriego

Any Christian would know this.

I was raised in a strict Christian household and we were not required to believe and agree with everything the preacher said.  

dgriego

The core beliefs of a church should always be examined and understood prior to membership.

I understand your opinion on this, but I'm not sure it's shared with every religion or religious person. In fact, I'm sure it's not. And what you heard on those video tapes were sound bites, if you will. Don't make the mistake of judging that this minister's entire message is limited to what you heard. I've been reading about this guy ever since Obama threw his hat into the ring and he has a LOT more to say than what you heard. I'm sure you would approve and probably agree with 80% of what he preaches.

dgriego

The message I have heard from Obama's pastor is a message of hate

How much of his overall message have you heard?  

We could continue to debate this topic forever. I have a lot of respect for you and no wish to argue and therefore think that in this case we will have to agree to disagree and that is okay as if we agreed on everything the world would be rather boring IMO

.

FourIsCompany

I was raised in a strict Christian household and we were not required to believe and agree with everything the preacher said.

 I think that hear the issue is what is it the pastor is saying that you do not agree with. There are levels of disagrement that one can live with, and there are levels that one could not. Yours perhaps differ from mine, but I could not continue in a church if my pastor even once preached a message like those I have heard (and yes I have not heard them all, some I might agree with) unless the pastor repented of what he said and publicaly explained in a manner that I found satifactory. And the fact that many of his congregation were standing up, slapping him on the back and yelling Amen seems to imply that the majority of the church agreed with his message.

  For instance the message where he says God damn America. I would find that terribly offensive if my pastor stated it in the manner that this man did. Has America sinned? Of course we have are we perfect? Of course we are not, but for my pastor to scream God Damn America at the top of his lungs would not be acceptable and only public retraction and repentance would allow me to continue under his leadership.

FourIsCompany

I understand your opinion on this, but I'm not sure it's shared with every religion or religious person. In fact, I'm sure it's not.

 Christianity is defined in many ways by many people. There are cultural Christians, there are week-end Christians, there are numerous people who call themselves Christians and yet have little understanding of theolgy or what Christianity truly is. Many state their affiliation with Christ and yet exhibit nothing that would show this to be true.  Depending on what being a Christian means to someone would be what would define how acceptable certain beliefs and statements would be. For me what I have heard is unacceptable for a pastor to continue in without renouncing and repenting his statements.

FourIsCompany

Don't make the mistake of judging that this minister's entire message is limited to what you heard. I've been reading about this guy ever since Obama threw his hat into the ring and he has a LOT more to say than what you heard. I'm sure you would approve and probably agree with 80% of what he preaches.

 The Bible is very clear that those who teach are held accountable for their teaching and at a higher standard than your average person. He may preach many a good message, but again the ones I have heard were messages of hate.

FourIsCompany

How much of his overall message have you heard?  

 I have tried to be clear on the fact that all I have heard is the clips that have been played over the past few days. For me that was enough. Altough he may have spoken messages that I could agree with, the fact that he so openly hates America, blames America  and blames whites who happen to be rich and seems to despise whites is enough to put me off anything good he might say. Should he step up and make a statement to clarify his words and openly state that he repents of the harm they have caused that he loves his county and hates her sins, that he loves all mankind and holds no hatred against whites then I will give him the benefit of doubt and forgive him. I have seen no sign that he intends to do so, although it would probably be of great benefit to Obama if he would.

 Anyway, I think we will need to agree to disagree on this one. I do not think either one of us is going to convince the other to change their viewpoint and much of what I would need to write in order to explain more of my position in regards to pastors and what is acceptable and not acceptable would require a huge discourse on theology which would deride the topic.

dgriego

I have a lot of respect for you and no wish to argue and therefore think that in this case we will have to agree to disagree and that is okay as if we agreed on everything the world would be rather boring IMO

Right back at ya.  

There is a huge difference in having friends or family that hold radical views and being a member of a church that holds and teachs these views. Any Christian would know this.

 
Is there? I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and I disagree.

If a prominent member of your family holds terrible/racist/bigoted views, they are still your family, you just refuse to agree with them and do not openly associate with them in particular.

If your church's pastor holds terrible/racist/bigoted views (views unrelated to the religion, that is), it is still your church and religion, but you refuse to agree with the pastor and do not openly associate with him in particular.

 
A church *IS* a family, to us....I don't really see difference, but that may just be me. 

 I had a feeling this was coming when Obama made the statement that he had never heard any of these type of messages from his pastor.

http://newsmax.com/kessler/Obama_hat%20e_America_sermon/2008/03/16/80870.html?s=al&promo_code=9991-1

 In all fairness to Obama his campaign is denying that he was in attendance on this day. The reporter in question had filed the original story back in August of 07 and filed a new one this week. People are going to be crawling out of the woodwork in order to find just one questionable sermon that Obama was in attendance for. I think he opened this up when he stated he had never sat in the pew for a sermon like the ones we have seen in the press.

"In his press release, Obama claimed, “The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity [United Church of Christ] or heard him utter in private conversation.”

"

In fact, Obama was present in the South Side Chicago church on July 22 last year when Jim Davis, a freelance correspondent for Newsmax, attended services along with Obama. [See: ”Obama’s Church: Cauldron of Division.”]

In his sermon that day, Wright tore into America, referring to the “United States of White America” and lacing his sermon with expletives as Obama listened. Hearing Wright’s attacks on his own country, Obama had the opportunity to walk out, but Davis said the senator sat in his pew and nodded in agreement. "

 It also seems that Oprha left this church years ago in order to distance herself from the pastor's views.

dgriego

Obama made the statement that he had never heard any of these type of messages from his pastor.

He did not make the statement that he had never heard any of these type of messages from his pastor. He said he wasn't in attendance when the specific messages in the recently released video were made. That's all. 

“The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity [United Church of Christ] or heard him utter in private conversation.”

He didn't say he had never heard ANY of these type messages. Nodding in agreement to "The United States of White America" is hardly the same as agreeing with "God Damn America"...

And as far as this, from the same sermon:

Addressing the Iraq war, Wright thundered, “Young African-American men” were “dying for nothing.” The “illegal war,” he shouted, was “based on Bush’s lies” and is being “fought for oil money.”

I agree completely. I would have nodded, too. Not ONLY African-American men are dying for nothing. Anyone who dies there is dying for nothing, IMO.

FourIsCompany

Nodding in agreement to "The United States of White America" is hardly the same as agreeing with "God Damn America"...

 Is this type of belief system any different from the views of white extremists? Is it helpful to putting an end to racism? It is not the same as saying God Damn America but it is still very racialy skewed IMO. As a white person, I have no probelm with any color of president or any sex of president or any combination of the two, but it does concern me having a black president who may believe that all the problems in the country are caused by whites. Hitler had the same philosphy with the jews and look how that ended. If it is any consolation I would be just as concerned if a white guy who held the views of the KKK and other white supremist views were trying to get elected to the office of president.

 edited to add: It looks like Obama is going to come out and make a speech tomorrow addressing this concern so I must not be the only one on the planet that has raised it.

 I look forward to hearing what he has to say on the subject.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/Obama_plans_major_race_speech_tomorrow.html

I'm just saying for many, many years, elderly white men have been making the laws and running the country. This should be a representative government and it never has been. To me, saying "The United States of White America" is no different than saying "The United States of Male America". It's just the way it is. Our government (congress) should be closer to 13% black and 50% female.

It's not putting down white people, it's just stating that the vast and overwhelming majority of people in this government are white and MAY NOT be looking out for the interests of other races. The reverend is much more militant and dramatic about it, but that's how I see his message.

dgriego

it does concern me having a black president who may believe that all the problems in the country are caused by whites.

I have NO indication that Obama believes that.

FourIsCompany

dgriego

it does concern me having a black president who may believe that all the problems in the country are caused by whites.

 

I have NO indication that Obama believes that.

I also have trouble believing that anyone who would actually believe that could get as far in politics as Obama has. I would rather have a President who is angry about centuries of racism and discrimination than who is angry about "loss of morality" (according to whom, exactly?) or "sinners" such as homosexuals. If Obama believes that all the problems in the country are caused by whites (after all, he is affiliated with a radical pastor who may believe that to some degree), then Bush believes that all the problems in the country are caused by homosexuals (after all, he is affiliated with the conservative Christian movement who may believe that to some degree). IMO, neitherof those are true statements.

 I'm with Bill Clinton - I think everyone needs to chill out. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=4461421 

FourIsCompany

I'm just saying for many, many years, elderly white men have been making the laws and running the country.

 The problems have nothing to do with the color of the persons making the laws. One only has to look to other countries where the law makers are of different ethnic groups to see that color has nothing to do with it.

 Corruption, greed, personal interests, sex etc. ect are the problems and no race is exempt from falling into their trap.

Cita

then Bush believes that all the problems in the country are caused by homosexuals (after all, he is affiliated with the conservative Christian movement who may believe that to some degree

 I have been a conservative Christian for 20 years and to the best of my recollection I have never blamed a homosexual for anything that is wrong in our country.

dgriego

Corruption, greed, personal interests, sex etc. ect are the problems and no race is exempt from falling into their trap.

Absolutely true. (Interestingly, I'm having a very similar discussion on another board!) But as a woman, having such a preponderance of men making the laws doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that women's issues are getting the attention they deserve. Women's Liberation is seeing to it that we are fairly represented. I remember some bumper stickers that could have been (and were) considered militant and "feminazi". Simply because women wanted their say and their place to be recognized and respected (and still do). Plenty of women talked about this "Man's World" and how this country is run by men (and still do). This is the same thing only with race instead of gender. It's just that race is a more sensitive subject and people tend to take offense more easily. (My opinion)

dgriego

I have been a conservative Christian for 20 years and to the best of my recollection I have never blamed a homosexual for anything that is wrong in our country.

I believe you. But let me tell you! There are MANY who blame gay people for everything wrong.