nail cutting

Gaylemarie,
 
I think the answer to your question lies in the why your dog has issues having his nails timmed.
Is he truly fearful? or are his issues more about control? From there..it's debateable on several levels as to whether mental damage could occur.
It's really hard to judge that from a computer conversation.
 
I'll make a confession here that may help you understand what I am trying to say.
 
I have an Aussie mix named Dooley. Dooley is a very respectful eager to please kind of dog. He was always good for nail trims until I got a second dog. When Dooley was two years old I adopted a nine week old Catahoula mix (my avatar) named Witt. Witt was terified to have his feet touched..and nail trimming was a noisy time. He didn't struggle so much as bellow and scream like we were killing him. It never occured to me that I should not allow Dooley to be in the room for these scream sessions. While Witt got better and better at having his nails trimmed..Dooley got worse and worse. He would jerk his leg over and over, squirm..anything to try and get away. I would hold tighter, have my husband hold him down, yell at him to behave. We tried many things. I admit I fell back on what I was taught growing up.."if you let them win..it's all over". Determined not to let him win I went ahead and clipped nails and actually nicked him pretty good a couple times..with the additude "you did that to yourself". It's not easy to clip a nail on a moving target. One day I got him enough that I had trouble stopping the bleeding. I decided something different needed to happen. I had been working for the groomer I work for now and I spoke with her about this. I decided to let her do the nail trimming for a while. She quickly earned his trust and NT's for him were no longer a big deal. I waited about 6 months before I even attempted to cut his nails. I felt guilty about how I had handled it after considering the whole situation. He became frightened of NT's because he saw and heard Witt acting as if he were being hurt (even though Witt has never been nicked). Instead of proving to him that it was safe and nothing to fear through patience..I went the quick way to making my dog mistrust me. I mistook his behavior for obstinance, when it was really fear.
 After the six months, I began trimming his nails one at a time. I would get the clippers and in an unexpected moment in an unexpected place..say like walking though the kitchen.."Dooley come" "Good boy"..pick a foot up clip one nail  and then big reward, treat, kisses..celebration. Put the clippers away and go play a game of fetch for a few minutes. Wait a couple days and do one more nail. I did this very slowly over a long period of time. I was earning his trust back. The great thing about dogs is that they forgive. Dooley has forgiven me and I clip his nails regularly now. I also dremel his nails. If I had only slowed down, taken a long hard look at my dog and his behavior I might have figured out a better way to go about things. Like I said before..I can't see whats happening with your dog, and I am not saying it's anything like it was with my dog..I'm just trying to convey that whatever the issue is, patience may be more likely to get you the results you want in the end.

Vets do pay attention to that but most owners don't want to hear that they are not feeding their dog the right food. The nutrition issue has always been hard for vets to deal with and even when they do tell the owners what they think most ower will only get offended or not care.

 
 
I of course think it depends on the vet... and I too have owners dismiss what I tell them about nutrition. But more often than not I get owners who are surprised and ask "why hasn't my vet ever told me that?". Maybe it's because I have quality foods right there in the shop with me to show them...but usually they are open to a new food.
In this area, my experience is that many vets don't discuss nutrition with their clients.
 

DeAnna - I've never used that type before, only the guillotine.  Maybe those would work better.  The guillotine seem to smush the nail as it cuts, but maybe I have a bad one too.  Do you throw them away if they get dull?  They're not horribly expensive, so I can see that as being an option.
 
My labs nails are black, so it's hard to tell where the quick is, but I think if I did it regularly, just cutting a little at a time, I could manage it just fine.  Sassy used to wear hers down naturally but since she's been on thyroid meds, I think they're growing faster than usual.  Might be my imagination, but it seemed like they got long really fast.

DeAnna - I've never used that type before, only the guillotine. Maybe those would work better. The guillotine seem to smush the nail as it cuts, but maybe I have a bad one too. Do you throw them away if they get dull? They're not horribly expensive, so I can see that as being an option.

My labs nails are black, so it's hard to tell where the quick is, but I think if I did it regularly, just cutting a little at a time, I could manage it just fine. Sassy used to wear hers down naturally but since she's been on thyroid meds, I think they're growing faster than usual. Might be my imagination, but it seemed like they got long really fast.

 
 
Yes, I buy new ones frequently. I trim alot of nails though..you probably wouldn't have to replace them as often as I do.
When you trim your labs nails try holding her her foot like you would a horses hoof, with this angle you can see the bottom of the nail easily. Take off small amounts at a time and look for a small circle to appear..it's not true for all dogs, but often you will see a white/gray circle appear when you get close to the quick. It's sooo hard to explain without showing =(

ok im getting kind of confused. are my dogs nails supposed to be completly closed? even on the bottom? because my dog has black nails so i have to flip his paw over or have him on his back to see where the quick ends. his nails are open on the under side, are they not supposed to be? he eats iams and lots of the foods we eat too. i know there are probably better diets, but i dont personally consider it to be specifically bad.  he hasnt had any health related problems, and i've never seen a shinier softer coat on any other dog.
 
DeAnna, after reading your reply it got me thinking. i think this is a fear issue for sure, but i do not know the cause of his fear. the only reason im sure it is more out of fear is because my dog is not the aggressive/dominant type and i think he would only ever bite out of fear. those two times he bit me were the only times he has ever bitten, the first time was when i was trying to cut his nails, the other i was trying to pull gum off his foot. i am almost positive it is fear after really thinking, because we can touch his feet all we want, my daughter can touch his feet all she wants and he doesnt do any more than raise his head to see whats going on. and any time we do anything else he doesnt like, for example he hates bathes,  he wont try to bite when i give him one he just sticks his head under my arm and waits for it to be over. i was thinking maybe his paws or nails were sore, but he doesnt mind them being touched, so that theory isnt likely. do you think it could just be me? i wont be offended if i'm the problem, i just want my dogs nails cut more often and easily [&:]

I'm not sure how to explain this in type..but I'll try. When you look at the backside of your dogs nail..the quick should be enclosed within. The nail should not be open all the way up the back exposing the quick. There should not be pitting, cracking, peeling or crumbling going on. Sometimes it's most obvious after a bath when the nail is softer. The hard nail casing should completely close aound the quick.
I tried to find pictures on line, but no luck.
Brand names of dog food aside, dogs like people are not all the same. If you think your dog is not experiencing optimal health on the food you are feeding it can't hurt to try some others and see how he does. I personally believe variety is key and offer my dogs and cats a wide variety of foods.
I have not researched what the causes nutritionally might be when it comes to nail health and it's not always nutrition..but I do know that many a dog that comes into our grooming shop with poor nail health improves greatly when the diet is changed. So take that for what it is worth =)
The nutrition forum on here is awesome for learning new things.
 
I can't tell you if your dog is fearful or not from behind my computer screen..you know your dog best, but if it is fear based, I would not use the force approach you are considering. I just think it would make matters worse, you would be in effect proving to him that he has much to be fearful about. It could be you the mom that is part of the issue..but I can't know that either. I do know that we have plenty of clients that come in with their dog and the dog is a complete butthead while mom or dad stands there..but if they leave the room all that changes. Each dog/owner is different. We also have clients whose dogs do much better with their owner standing there. Maybe talking to the groomer thats new in your area you mentioned and seeing how she/he handles NT's might be a good idea..then you can see how he acts with her. I am by no means a expert, I've made mistakes obviously..I just wanted to share with you my experience in hopes that maybe a different approach might do the trick.
I don't wish to get beat up for this but I'm going to say it anyways..I just noticed the dog is your avatar is a Daschund. In the years I have worked for this shop..I've only met one Daschund that didn't have issues with a NT or having his feet handled..there are a couple breeds of dogs I have noticed this about. I am not trying to generalize about a whole breed (s), but it is my observation. Even so...the Daschies that come in, do learn to have their nails trimmed without it being a major event and we do it with patience. Hope I haven't offended anyone.
 
 
 

lol, i wasnt offended by your comment on daschunds at all, so dont be offended when i tell you he isnt one [] he's actually mostly brittany with some beagle and gordon setter (dont worry everyone thinks he is a daschund mix at first site). but i'm glad to know stubborn dogs can learn to live with getting their nails cut. i think i will walk down and talk with the new groomer tomorrow and see if they could maybe handle him better than me and my husband have been. i will make sure and ask them if his nails look out of the ordinary as well.
 
thank you all for the help!!

DeAnna first let me say welcome, and I love the way that you take the time to understand your dog, you should fit in here well. Maybe this will help. However I still stink at doing my dogs nails so I don't. Some good pictures here
[linkhttp://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/dog_nails.asp]http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/dog_nails.asp[/link]

Nice link on the nail trimming, I have to clip Babe's nails every 2 weeks, they grow so dang fast! Part of the reason is her health, she is NOT healthy, she is amost 12 and has been on meds for over 18 months. Up until about a year ago I could trim her nails with no trouble, now I can't, I have to muzzle her and the husband has to hold her. I usually do the front paws and call it a day.
 
Maybe I should send her to my salon?
 
Dawn

Teenie is a Dachshund and has NO issues with nail trimming, dremmeling, filing, or painting. Of course, that has nothing to do with anything I did. She was like this, when I got her, last year. Her nails were horrendous. I took off an inch, the day I got her, and her limp was immediately less noticeable.

With fear, I'd try to work on the confidence and earning trust, like DeAnna said. One nail at a time, with TONS of praise and treats. Let him lick while you clip, or treat him several times after you clip.

Wow! Could I get futher off the mark..LOL, I guess you shouldn't judge a dog by it's avatar head! How big is he?
 
Debv, thank you for the welcome. I used to come to this site all the time, I mostly stayed in the nutrition section though. Thanks for the link..I was looking for  pictures of abnormal nails to show her what it looks like when it's open in back, I never did find any.
 
Jennie, I'm glad you keep up on her nails..it's very sad when dogs come into the shop and can barely walk. The owners always tell me they walk that way because they are old, sometimes I am able to explain to them and sometimes they think I am full of crap.

Wow! Could I get futher off the mark..LOL, I guess you shouldn't judge a dog by it's avatar head! How big is he?

 
he's pretty small, he was the runt of his litter, he was a major runt too, doesnt look anything like the other ones did. he's about 35 lbs.
 
 

Jennie, I'm glad you keep up on her nails..it's very sad when dogs come into the shop and can barely walk. The owners always tell me they walk that way because they are old, sometimes I am able to explain to them and sometimes they think I am full of crap.

Gosh, I hate seeing that, too. I hate having to take INCHES (plural) off of small dogs' nails. It kills me, to see them like that. Teenie's an old girl, but minus two inches of toenail and ten pounds, she walks and runs quite normally. She's ten years old, and can run two miles beside my bike, easily. Dachshunds should be atheletes. They were bred for hunting in a field all day!

Berzerker is SO cute!!!! I thought Dachshund or Dachshund mix, from his head, too. His body has a totally different look Very handsome guy.

Just saw the thread but wanted to mention what worked for me in the past.
 
My Lani hated having her NT and would fight my husband and me to the bitter end. Unfortunately I had the 'win at all costs' attitude.  []
 
I learned through trial and error to trim them when giving her a bath in the tub. She never cared for bath-time but would reluctantly allow it.  I could do them myself and she wouldn't fight.  Guess she thought she was already miserable so what's one more hateful procedure! 
 
May or may not work but worth a try.  Especially if you have a few really good treats handy to add to the mix.