I shouldn't have to choose between husband and dog...

Yup, control issues is a great way to describe it...

we've had a LONG talk, sort of calm and realized that for now basically I'm going to keep Snickers seperate from teh other two with his help. Snickers, even with a muzzle in the house, in his mind can instigate a fight. While it will be hard, i think I can come up with a schedule so each dog feels they get adequate attention. I will not leave them alone together either until a behaviorist evaluates their play. however, I will still be hiking them together, I've have never ever had an issue with her and them fighting on a hike and he agrees.

Now, in his mind, as he as explained to me, he sees her as completely aggressive and unpredictable and out of control not to be trusted. In my mind she is yes, leash aggressive, and snappy at other dogs if they step on her of get in her face. She is also moody and reacting out of pain due to arthritis/HD, it is not yet severe enough for FHO or THR. Also, in my mind if she wanted to hurt another dog she would have done so and seriously a darn long time ago. I have left she and Oliver alone in a room/yard together for 10 hours at a time with NO incident. That doesn't make her behavior right but I've worked in a kennel with 50 sled dogs and have dealt with more fights than I can relate to you all... if dogs want to rip each other's throats out they will, but this does NOT look like those types of fights... Snickers has never and does not show indications of escalating (two years sog when I lived in NJ she went to dog parks regularly and joined in group dog play easily and readily). When Oliver backs down she does NOT go back for more. Khoale on the other hand... does not back down as quickly, maybe it may be that they can't be in a house together even though I'd taken the precaution of hiking them together for weeks with no incident before I brought her home. I'll rehome Khoale if I have to. DH has no frame of reference to deal with this and putting myself in his shoes i do actually get it because for him, any growl is scary, any lip raise is a sign of severe aggression becuase he truly does not know any better and these dogs are the first he's ever had in his life.

Dh is truly fearful of Snickers and wrong or right, in his mind she is scary and dangerous when in the room with other dogs. He has FINALLY agreed that he is willing to go to the behaviorist with me to learn how to deal with Snickers and understand her behavior, and determine if it is the way I say it is, or the way he says it is. While he may not agree with the behaviorist and can't promise that he will feel comfortable enough to have them together in a room, he is willing to listen and try. I've also told him that if the person we go to says that he's right and Snickers IS a danger to my other dogs and people, then I will continue to keep her seperate as we will be doing til we go. I can admit I am wrong if I am.

I've filled out a form to get an eval at a kennel up here, it's free if you don't click with them or agree with their methods. Further, Mirandadobe has been nice enough to look into getting some behaviorist info for me and will be getting back to me soon with a referral as well.

He has FINALLY agreed that he is willing to go to the behaviorist with me to learn how to deal with Snickers and understand her behavior, and determine if it is the way I say it is, or the way he says it is. While he may not agree with the behaviorist and can't promise that he will feel comfortable enough to have them together in a room, he is willing to listen and try.

Great news and I hope that no one's "right" or "wrong" in this situation, but that things can be worked out for the entire family, including Snickers.  Because my situation with my dogs is very similar, I'd really love to hear what comes out of the evaluation.

There is a possibility (due to pain and stress issues) that Snickers will appreciate not having to deal with the other dogs.

Maybe your seperating the dogs will be best for her. I would give her plenty of quite time to help keep her stress levels down.

This in itself may help calm her.

ORIGINAL: outdoorschik

Now, in his mind, as he as explained to me, he sees her as completely aggressive and unpredictable and out of control not to be trusted.

 
Now, even if the dog does not have issues your husband can not feel that way about the dog, dogs know when somebody does not like them and dogs dont need to hear it, your dog wont trust anyone that does not trust him back and that can affect the rehab, your husband will have to be the "bigger person" and change his feelings about the dog, if not then the only one your dog will have issues with after the rehab will be your husband, i know that it will be really really hard for him but any human being or animal would do the same as the dog if someone does not like him 

Outdoorschik - I haven't read the entire thread on this subject, but I did read the whole original post.  I wanted to wait a couple of days to reply.
 
I can say this from personal experience, that for women like us who have lived with and managed a dog(s) with aggression issues, we sometimes get desensitized to how much of our lives center around this kind of management.  I hope you'll bear with me as I share something deeply personal. 
 
I had a chocolate Lab that had some pretty serious aggression issues that I was unable to fix, and I tried everything.  3 years ago her rescue told me to put her down because there weren't any other options available.  I chose to manage her at that time, because I was single with a relatively predictable lifestyle, and I also had people in my life who understood her junk and helped me manage her.  About a year and a half after the rescue said to PTS, I met my husband.  We got engaged and six months later I moved the dogs in with him while I lived with friends elsewhere before our wedding.  Now, my husband had been around dogs all his life, but he had never been around rescues and had NEVER encountered a dog like my Bunny.  He could not believe how much work and discipline she required (which never "stuck"), how much she ran my life and, consequently after the marriage, OUR lives.  It was a battle every day either between he and I, or between us and her, because she growled at us every day, several times a day.  We also have an 8 year old daughter (his from previous marriage) and we have people over at the house constantly.  It was always a worry of what might happen.  Not only that, she would bolt after other dogs too - nearly scaring a neighbor half to death one day.
 
Finally, his/our frustration reached a breaking point and I contacted her rescue to see about rehoming her.  She was evaluated by a very well known behaviorist in my area who deemed her ineligible for rehabilitation (and this was someone who makes their living rehabbing the toughest behavioral issues).  Her problems were never alleviated by either behavioral modification or meds (meds made her worse) and the behaviorist felt I'd have to have her on megadoses of Prozac for the rest of her life, and even then she would never be trustworthy.  She was, unfortunately, a product of our puppy mill industry. 
 
This dog was tearing apart my life and my marriage.  It wasn't until I had another person in my life that I finally realized: holy crap - my life totally revolves around this situation, and I finally saw that the costs outweighed the benefits.  I wasn't able to have relationships with other PEOPLE because of my dog, and not to mention my OTHER dog was pretty neglected because of all the attention we had to focus on just getting through the day with Bunny.  I finally and with a very heavy heart, after a great deal of soul-searching, made the decision to put her down. 
 
Now, I am not telling you that you should put Snickers down.  I don't think dog-dog aggression is as serious as when you have dog-human aggression with a dog that has a bite history.  My point in sharing this is that your husband may just have absolutely no experience dealing with this - and thus, his threshold is much lower than yours.  He doesn't have the emotional attachment to Snickers that you do, and in the midst of a tough situation it can seem to him that all of the problems center around the dog.  Perhaps this is an opportunity for you to have a "wake up call" to how much of yourself you have given away to try and manage your dog - and in the process you're sacrificing your ability to have relationship with your husband and other people in your lives.  It's easy for outsiders to point fingers and say your husband is being controlling and blame the whole issue on him, but my feeling is to cut him some slack.  You've been dealing with it for much longer than he has, and even though you lived together before you got married, marriage has a way of putting a "finality" to a lot of things and he may just be venting some frustration and worry that "it's always going to be this way". 
 
Hang in there, you have my best hopes for a positive and workable solution.  I think its great that your husband is willing to go to a behaviorist to work with and understand Snickers - that says a lot about his commitment to be with you and to have compassion for the things that are important to you. 

g33

I can see things from your point of view, but I think threatening with divorce and walking out is a little drastic.
What does that show for future problems? Everytime something doesn't go his way he is outta there?
You said you read the original post , please read the rest of the posts from the OP.

I really hope for the OP that all works out and the dog can be a winner, too.[]

ORIGINAL: snownose

g33

I can see things from your point of view, but I think threatening with divorce and walking out is a little drastic.
What does that show for future problems? Everytime something doesn't go his way he is outta there?
You said you read the original post , please read the rest of the posts from the OP.

I really hope for the OP that all works out and the dog can be a winner, too.[]

 
I agree it's drastic, but I think it shows that her husband is scared - it's easier for those of us who don't know him, to write him off as some kind of jerk.  His actions speak "fear" (generally, that's what all attempts at control are, trying to assuage fear).  Sure, he overreacted and probably said a few things he's going to regret.  Don't we all sometimes, when we feel backed into a corner and feel hopeless?  Let's also not forget he was nursing a bite wound, and pain has a way of making fear and anger VERY real to us. 

Gina - I think your post is excellent!  While I don't agree with the divorce threats, I can't help but wonder if this wasn't a desperation statement.   None of us know either partner, so I don't think it's fair to make assumptions.  I'm not sure if I'd been trying to accept a difficult situation already and then were bitten in the middle of the night, that I wouldn't be unreasonable too.  I just don't think it's fair to make statements condemning him or the relationship, especially if there's a chance that things can be worked out. 
 
 

I have only skimmed through most of the posts here, so forgive me if I repeat something.

I agree with most here, it sounds like fear of something. I hope that you both can work this out and live happily ever after. I'm a guy and I'd like to add my perspective here. Growing up, my dad hated our dogs. But he knew that my mom, my brother and I loved them. So he has learned to accept them. He used to not even acknowledge them at all. He actually plays with my moms little Toy Fox Terrier now though. He's not really crazy about Max. He thinks that he's one of the best looking Goldens he's ever seen, but other then that he doesn't want much to do with him.

The point of all that is, if you truly love a person, you learn to deal with the things that they enjoy, even if you don't. So, honestly, unless he commits himself to dealing with your dogs, you and him will probably never be truly happy. There will always be some resentment harbored there. If he truly cares about you and your feelings, he won't do anything this drastic. So, think about it this way. You may be better off without him if he continues down this this path. I know it's easier said then done, so my heart goes out to you.

I went through all of the stuff with Bunny when I was a member of another internet board.  People there absolutely vilified my husband, called him names, told me I should divorce him, blah blah blah, and then after I put her down, called me a dog killer, and continued to vilify him and myself for the choices I made for my life.  It's just not helpful.  A person isn't going to throw away a marriage because of a dog, and isn't going to throw away a dog just because a spouse says so.  There are always more issues at play than what someone can possibly explain over the internet.  Since I've been in the OP's shoes with sharing something personal like this, I would just like to say that absolutely none of us know what her life, her marriage, or her husband is like even though she might be trying very hard to give us a good picture of it.  Having been where she is, I have the luxury of erring on the side of compassion, but some folks may not truly understand unless they've been there and had to deal firsthand with this kind of tough situation.  It's just never black and white. 

People there absolutely vilified my husband, called him names, told me I should divorce him, blah blah blah, and then after I put her down, called me a dog killer, and continued to vilify him and myself for the choices I made for my life.

 
Ironically, when I 1st came to this board 5 yrs ago, it was because of Sassy's problems, and I was the one who wanted to rehome her and my DH was adamantly opposed.  There was one guy who gave me a bad time, but others were totally sympathetic to me.  Now, imagine if my DH had been on his own forum saying "my wife says she's had it and is going to try to find a new home for Sassy" or heaven forbid, spun it in a less favorable way [&:].  I'm pretty sure they'd have been telling him he ought to fight for his right, etc., etc.  Several months ago I posted that I wanted to let Buffy, the older dog, go live with his mom.  She and Sassy had just had a fight, and my fears escalated again.  Once more, I got total support, but you know what?  DH has had her since she was a puppy and she's 11+ now.  He said "there's no way I'm letting her go.  She'd be heartbroken".  I actually think she'd be fine and loves his mom, but I decided that having him feel miserable about it wasn't worth it.  It took me a few days to settle down about it though. So, like the DH we're all talking about, I too have sometimes taken awhile to put my fears and feelings aside and see the importance of my marriage vs. the management issues of my dogs. 

Forgive me in advance for generalizing, but from what you've said it sounds like your husband can be a sort of "macho" guy. It sounds like he hates to show fear or weakness, but he is now terrified of Snickers. The fact that you are not equally afraid makes him feel even worse - having someone share a fear can validate the concerns, and make it not seem so much like it's the individual being "weak" to be afraid, but rather that there's something that actually merits the fear. If that makes any sense at all. So here he is being afraid, and then being afraid/embarrassed that he's afraid, and then being afraid/embarrassed/resentful that you are not also afraid (which might take away some of his embarrassment). If that makes any sense at all?

I can't speak to other aspects of the marriage, although I do hope you two find a good couples' counselor and get (good) help if you want to work through this. As someone who's working towards or is already in the field, you are probably well aware of the many incompetent scumbags who call themselves "counselors" and ruin the profession's reputation for the responsible people out there. With something as important as you and your husband, you don't want just any old stinker telling you what to do!

For this particular issue/incident, IMO it seems like the most helpful thing you can do is be 100% loving and compassionate with your husband about his fears of the dog. It sounds like you're doing a lot of this already, with keeping Snickers in a safe environment until you can get a professional. As Callie was so kind to remind me in a different post, don't turn this situation into you the expert versus DH the ignorant novice. In this particular situation, you both need more help/information, and if you can frame it like you're both going to learn things together, I bet your husband will be a lot more open to really "hearing" and learning from the behaviorist. Nobody likes an "I told you so" - anyone who has been bitten by a dog, even accidentally, does have sufficient reason to be afraid. Information can be empowering! If he has more tools to understand and know how to work with Snickers and the other dogs, he doesn't have as much reason to be afraid anymore. No doubt he resents the fact that you're the "expert," and if you're anything like me, you probably have talked down to him regarding the dogs without even meaning to or realizing it. If you both are on more equal ground knowledge-wise then it will be a lot easier to compromise.

Are there any areas in which he is the obvious "expert" and you are ignorant? Maybe you could work with him such that if he learns more about the dogs, you'll learn more about whatever his interest is. Then you both get to be "experts" in something, and are both showing a willingness to learn about the other person's activities. It's a really wild guess, but maybe there's something that he cares deeply about that he feels you're uninterested in, and he resents the fact that the dogs are pushed into his life when you don't seem to care about whatever it is that's important to him.

All that said, I think you've behaved in a remarkably rational manner. (At least from what you dared to post online! []) You both seem to acknowledge he was way out of line, and I know the last few days must have been absolute hell for both of you. I don't at all mean to say that you're at fault here or anything like that. It seems like you are a very loving and strong woman and are capable of "being the bigger person" to open up better communication with DH. Not that you need to make concessions, of course - I think you behaved very honorably in standing your ground while making compromises! - but as difficult as it can be to make friendly overtures in a situation like this, it can have a huge effect! And from what you've said, it sounds like he's not really in a place to do that right now.

I really hope things work out for you, whatever you decide. I really admire your courage in standing up to him while still behaving lovingly towards him and your animals.

I just have to say thank you to everyone that has responded to my posts and put so much time into talking me through a lot of this with their advice, well wishes, and personal stories. It truly helps a ton.

jm - what a wonderful point about being seperate actually less stressful for her! I've been feeling a bit overwhelmed and guilty about the seperation thing even though it needs yo be done at lest for teh short term. It is certainly possible that Snickers will feel relieved to be able to relax in peace without being constantly bothered by Oliver and Khoale and having to be on the alert to run them off... your words made me realize this might not be the worst thing.

g33 - thanks so much for sharing your personal story... while our stories are somewhat different, it still seems like you understand the strain a dog, however aggressive it is can put on a relationship. you make some very accurate observations as well. Dh's threshold for aggression is much much lower than mine and to even consider keeping a dog with a hint of dog-dog aggression, much less dog-human aggression is utterly foreign. Yup, he was nursing a bite wond and lost it...

snownose... yes it was drastic and I make no excuses for him, but I'm sure there are things that i have done or ways I have responded that are less than stellar that he could share with you all as well. I'm fully aware that if we cannot get ot the point that we can have a serious issues without him issuing threats and ultimatums, that this relationship may not be continuing.

Cakana - thanks for portraying the "other side" ... i do feel guilty being the only one sharing their side. I do believe he will take a few days to put aside the fears and he is already beginning to work with this. He is willing to work with me to help keep the dogs seperate and help out in addition to going to the behaviorist when before he said he wouldn't waste a moment of his life on her... so progress, but slow.

cita - hehe "from what I posted online".... I left out the sobbing hyserically, but beyond that I've tried to accurately portray myself, although I'll bet DH would protray me as more stubborn and unwilling to work with him from his perspective. you are right that I'm sure it feels like I'm talking down to him about how he's wrong about the dog and I know b/c "xyz blah blah blah". It is SOOO hard to keep my mouth shut, b/c it is extremely frustrating when i feel she is not dangerous to have to listen to him say she is. He seems to react better when I say that i understand where he is coming from (which I actually am beginning to with the help of some of these posts and time just thinking about what he's said and his pet background, etc), not try to convince him she is not dangerous (that makes him all the more defensive and upset) and suggest that we go together to learn. oh and yes... absolute hell would be accurate... i took off from internship today to regroup, work on my portfolio that was supposed to be done this weekend and just have some mental health time... gosh i cannot imagine going to counsel young children with all of this weighing on me.
also cita, yes it makes perfect sense that he is acting out of fear, then embarassment, and then resentfulness/pure anger... it's very important for him, in his definition of himself to avoid huge risks and stay healthy, etc. To have a "risk" like snickers in the house... that scares the heck out of him.

ps - looks like i may be driving 4 hours for a good behaviorist/trainer I can't find a single good one in my area and mirandadobe's trainer has come recommended now by her and one near me that was recommended but full til june (she said she might not be able to help me then either due to my description of the situation). tougher than I thought to find one... it's important to me to find a good one, too #1, help understand snickers better and change our ways of working with her #2 make DH feel confident that this person is professional, and worthy of his trust.

Even if it is only short term (the seperating)...I would always make sure that Snickers has her own spot to go to where she will not be disturbed. So she can get away and have peace and quiet when she is not feeling well.

And I would try a routine of specific quiet times.  Say for instance the dogs are allowed together for an hour...things go well...no tiffs... after the hour of play time, she is to get an hour of peace and quiet time (alone, in her own spot, without disturbances from people or dogs) to destress.

But of course, still see the behaviorist or whatever.  But there is a big possibility that it is linked to pain and stress.

Maybe look into some natural pain relief for her.  Maybe some DGP (dog gone pain) or something.  Amber Technologies has a formula for dog pain. also. Maybe an anxiety formula, or stress formula also may help her.

ORIGINAL: outdoorschik



jm - what a wonderful point about being seperate actually less stressful for her! I've been feeling a bit overwhelmed and guilty about the seperation thing even though it needs yo be done at lest for teh short term. It is certainly possible that Snickers will feel relieved to be able to relax in peace without being constantly bothered by Oliver and Khoale and having to be on the alert to run them off... your words made me realize this might not be the worst thing.

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