Dog Community

Slick Websites and Modern Puppy Buying

Posted : 8/4/2009 7:28:02 PM

I'm pleased to see that the old brick and mortar puppy store seems to be fading away, with the possible exception of the megastores. However, there's a newish phenomenon plaguing the purebred puppy "market" - the mega web store. These are specialist breeders who breed on a massive scale. In the past they got the word out via magazines and it was rather hit or miss. In the last ten years or so, they've jumped on the info superhighway with a vengeance. They realize that it's the perfect way to sound wonderful without ever having to deal with local customers and the possible repercussions, should conditions at the kennel get out. They also realize that true breed enthusiastics rarely have the time, money, or desire to set up slick websites, or mess with shipping and online purchasing, and in fact that most responsible breeders have litters sold before they are even conceived. Web-based megabreeders cater to those who equate puppy shopping with buying a flat screen TV at Walmart. There should be plenty of selection, evidence of satisfied customers, and reasonable prices. If there are rumors of bad stuff, well, Walmart gets most of their stuff from China, and we still buy it and the products are good, right? What else really matters? With regard to the particular breeder named on another thread here, I can say in sum that the ABCA (Border Collie registry) removed him from registration privileges after personally visiting his facilities. Two of the people who were on site are personal friends of mine - they can hardly talk about it still, years later. The ABCA, sadly, had no power to improve the lot of the poor dogs they saw, but they were able to ascertain through independent DNA testing that the breeder was lying about the parentage of puppies (by the way, his "rescue" efforts are a big thorn in the side of the local legitimate rescue, being an outlet for his "used" breeding dogs). Their duty then was to protect the gene pool from these errors. It's important to mention that no responsible breeder I know, whether working or not, has a nice, flashy web site offering online purchase of puppies which are always available for sale, shipping mentioned on the first page, and little or no mention of the accomplishments of the direct parents. Border Collies are all about doing stuff and breeding from dogs that do nothing is a BIG red flag. Speaking of which, the ABCA's policy is in support of BREEDING only for working ability, but they don't offer a litmus test for inclusion on litter registrations. And both the ABCA and the USBCC (the breed club) are very supportive of doing anything but conformation with your Border Collie. From Bordercollie.org, the clearinghouse site for the working Border Collie organizations:

opposing the showing, judging, and breeding of Border Collies based upon their appearance, promoting the breeding only of sound and healthy animals free of genetic defects, and encouraging Border Collie owners to work with their dogs in the many canine sports at which Border Collies excel.

Oh, and if you call the ABCA, you'll speak to Patty Rogers, who single handedly, and without remuneration, takes care of all the registry's day to day activities. She's about the nicest, Texas-sweet pea you'll ever talk to.

JackieG

Posted : 8/4/2009 7:50:03 PM

It's one of the worst uses of the internet. Just because someone has tons of glowing references means nothing. It's all smoke and mirrors unless you can actually confirm the information to be fact. Great post Becca and it can't be said enough, IMO.

erica1989

Posted : 8/4/2009 9:05:50 PM

ack - puppy websites are the worst! The puppy mill we busted last year had a very nice website - with pictures of these pretty little dogs all decked out in ribbons and dresses. That is NOT what we took out of that house...

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/4/2009 9:51:19 PM

So true. Makes me sick whenever I hear of such things. Reminds me of the lady in New England who was breeding a ton of different breeds under several kennel names, all with lovely little web pages - they took about 200 out of her place, and many were deformed, sick, dirty, etc.

Liesje

Posted : 8/5/2009 9:06:36 AM

It's not even just the multi-breed puppy mills. There are several GSD breeders who have flashy website and are coded in annoying ways that bump them way up high on the Google search. These kennels purchase dogs from Germany who are from popular/winning German lines, have their titles, health certs, etc. but then just breed them into the ground and give them away or euth them. Just because the dog is of the same litter as a V or VA dog in Germany does not make the breeder reputable. To me these places are glorified puppy mills. I don't care that the breeding dogs cost tens of thousands to title and purchase. All they are doing is breeding dozens of litters a year. People get suckered in because the dogs look nice and have titles and good pedigrees. Of course the breeder has tons of "referals" and recommendations on their site. There were a few people that told me about possibly starting a class action law suit against one of these breeders. Well some snitch told the breeder who then threatened back with some sort of defamation lawsuit or whatever and the snitch put up a blog all about how this breeder is the best person ever, yadda yadda. I would like to ask this person, how many breeders and kennels did you actually visit? Of course you think they are great, they told you everything you wanted to hear and you never did any research.

Anyway, my friend who breeds intentionally keeps her site very sparse. For one, she spends all her time with her dogs. The site would fall behind and then she would look bad. Two, she prefers that people call her and talk to her directly about her dogs and her program. She will not just sell a puppy based on an online questionaire. I am re-designing the site for her so it's more up to date looking at has the "team" colors (for our training suits and athletic clothes). http://www.dutchbingo.net/personal/24KGSDtest/ (the Articles and Links aren't finished).

No matter what's included on a site, people will always freak out about something. If you don't put a lot of dogs, then none of your dogs are competing. If you do list a lot of dogs, then you must singlehandedly own them all and be a hoarder. If you list titles, then you must just be trying to make money off dogs with crap titles. If you don't list titles, then your dog doesn't have any.

I use a website (if there is one) as a jumping off point. Many websites do send up a lot of red flags, and I will skip over a breeder based on the info on their website. However if a site is sparse, I won't write off that breeder without talking to other people or watching the dogs work and compete.

One of the nicest, most knowledgable, and most well-respected breeders and fanciers in this country does not even have a website right now. But go to any major event and you will find him and his team and family. They are approachable and willing to help you and answer your questions honestly. No website can make up for a lack of experience, as long as interested persons have done their research. THAT is the real problem, people don't do their research and it's so easy for bad or ignorant breeders to take advantage.

aerial1313

Posted : 8/5/2009 9:32:56 AM

That's a nice website, Liesje. Question, tho. Who is Chopper? Is that not Kenya?

rwbeagles

Posted : 8/5/2009 9:39:46 AM

And before the web, it was the newspaper...now apparently an equally vile place to find a breeder. Fact is...I guess most "good breeders" don't want to be found! Because well, you pretend to be a just starting out puppy buyer and find one before you find one of the "others"!

I will keep my site thanks...and I will use the newspaper if I need to...and if that alone makes me a bad breeder...feel free to think that. I am putting myself out there, in the public's face as it were, to compete directly with those $75 Beagles in the paper and free one's all over the web. I am directing to rescue and other reputable sources when I cannot help them directly. I am educating when the really ignorant but well meaning emails come in...

But..again...dam*ed if you do...dam*ed if you don't! welcome to my world!

Liesje

Posted : 8/5/2009 9:42:39 AM

aerial1313
That's a nice website, Liesje. Question, tho. Who is Chopper? Is that not Kenya?

Yes Chopper is Kenya. Her breeder bred her litter and then owned her, did the basic training with her and the U-CH. She was almost 4 when I got her.

brookcove

Posted : 8/5/2009 11:31:58 AM

Gina, I'm not talking about ANYBODY who has a website. I'm talking about the high-volume breeders who use a website to cover up what goes on at their physical premises. I always tell someone trying to get "into" Border Collies - go to trials and clinics. Find out where people got the dogs they are happy with. Just "Googling" a breed is about the worst way to start a search, other than to check out information about the breed (and even that is less useful than actually talking with a wide range of people involved in the breed, from rescue to high level breeders). Here's the web site for a breeder that I'd highly recommend: http://www.altapetestockdogs.com/ It's a lovely site, but it's not puppy sales oriented. In spite of the number of dogs, and the fact that Scott is a multiple time National Champion, they don't breed more than a couple litters a year. This is Sam's breeder: http://fieldstonebordercollies.com/ Again, they only plan one in-house litter a year, maybe (Sam's litter was an accident). The web site itself emphasizes the style of work of the dogs, in addition to their trial accomplishments. There's no puppy pictures on the web site itself because that's not what Border Collies are about (a conformation kennel would be different - I'd look for pictures of puppies as they grew, certainly). Sam's breeder sent me several pictures of Sam and his brothers as they grew and those pics were available from the web site, but the litter was already sold to us - it was just to share with their future homes and to "brag." :) I imagine anyone could look at your website and tell the quality versus someone who breeds 20 litters of beagle puppies a year. The problem is, as Liesje said, that the high volume breeders know the tricks of getting bumped up the list when you do a search. Here's the first breeder that comes up when you search on "beagle puppy" : Sunshine Puppies (Oh good grief, it's in NC) - what do you think, Gina? Offhand, I can tell the difference between you and them, but I wouldn't be accessing the breed via the New Puppy in the Window. I'd ask YOU for a reference for a pet pup or more likely, go to rescue. I guess the question is, how to make the good breeders higher profile. The BC people do this by maintaining the central clearinghouse which includes access to our trial organization, our registry, and our breed club - and the breed club maintains a very high-volume forum http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php? where one can find very easily information on how to locate a high-quality puppy and how to steer clear of the bad guys.

Liesje

Posted : 8/5/2009 11:48:08 AM

The other thing that irks me about websites (and I mentioned this in the working/show thread) is when breeders advertise their dogs as "suitable for show, work, Schutzhund, agility, SAR, service dog..." (using GSDs as an example) but then do not have a single dog in the past 5-10 years actively working/competing in any of these venues. If you say your dogs are doing or are suitable for doing X, then you should have proof that at the very least one of your current breeding dogs and progeny or competition dogs are actually doing X. But ignorant people only read the statement and assume that because the breeder of course thinks their own dogs are "suitable" for these things, they are actually doing them.

aerial1313

Posted : 8/5/2009 11:59:06 AM

brookcove
Here's the first breeder that comes up when you search on "beagle puppy" : http://www.sunshinebeaglepups.com/

Woah! Did you scroll aaaaalllll the way down to their Mission Statement? They breed mini beagles, too. Hmm

ETA: Not one word in their Mission Statement about health testing, either. Good grief.

rwbeagles

Posted : 8/5/2009 12:00:08 PM

You mentioned high volume,

Many reputable folks that show or trial would be considered high volume. Beagles are pack hounds...working people and show people BOTH, ...keep packs of hounds...and many breed more than one bitch per annum. By many people standards...that is high volume...by many people's standards...a coonhound breeder breedng the way the usually do, keeping their dogs outside, perhaps not clean at all times, perhaps not at what JQP considers a proper weight...would be a mill to many people.

So that makes my take on your comments on high volume..different than perhaps other people's.

As to sites, my little site is just my site...I have no idea how to increase hits on it and not sure I want to. It is in the database for showbeaglers that is kept. I guess that is some sort of clearinghouse. I try to keep my impact local because that what I feel can make the most difference. I advertise locally because I can reach people more that way...and I have educated some folks and had others walk away (virtually) in a huff...lol.

I think that posting links to purported mills here...drives more traffic to their sites, and might even lead some of the site owners, BACK here...so I didn't click any of them. I am sure I have seen their ilk before.

Liesje

Posted : 8/5/2009 12:32:00 PM

^ Yes, it does. External links are really the key in driving traffic AND getting to the top of the search engine hit list. I won't post the links to the GSD rip-offs and puppy mills but can PM them if anyone needs to see.

brookcove

Posted : 8/5/2009 12:35:01 PM

Border Collie people use "high volume" as a key red flag - because it's the opposite with a BC - by nature training is intense and focused on the individual dog, though a big working outfit will need many dogs trained (as with Alta-Pete - he runs thousands of sheep on the Canadian prairie). Hunting kennels are unique. I'd hope someone looking for a dog from such a kennel, would be informed of the difference between a kennel whose purpose is training dogs and maintaining a certain number for work, and someone keeping hundreds of dogs as untrained "breeding stock." But you can't tell such a thing from just a nice website unless you watch the site for a while, or inquire carefully over time (and therefore notice that the dogs being bred are done so haphazardly, or for color, or at early ages and without health or training considerations, etc). The fellow whose mention triggered my starting this thread - yes, he has hundreds of breeding dogs. How on earth can one ascertain temperament or potential, much less the highly complex package of working characteristics that makes up a BC, when you are managing hundreds of dogs? There's a few more in the area, who have also been disciplined, same deal. The Border Collie world is a small one and breeders like these can make a LARGE impact. Not to mention the heartache when individual families get dogs that are unhealthy in mind or body (usually mostly temperamental problems as the BC temperament is far more fragile than their health). Really Gina, it's NOT aimed at good breeders in any way. I'm not anti-breeding - you know that! I just want people to know that there are other ways to find a breeder than the Walmart approach - and in fact the Walmart approach would NOT find you as a breeder either. A random person would, I'd assume, find you through the breed club, or through regional references, through this forum, or others where you are active, or through word of mouth. What matters is not that the random person can find you - it's that you will always have excellent homes for your puppies and I take it you don't need a megawebsite for that. Your dogs are their own best advertisement. Big Smile

brookcove

Posted : 8/5/2009 12:37:46 PM

Duh.. I'm sorry - I meant to post that as a "non-link" but my fingers just did the UBB code by habit. I fixed it! Wink