Slick Websites and Modern Puppy Buying

With GSDs the high volume can go either way.  You can get a very nice dog out of a high volume breeder that knows what they are doing.  It boils down to personal preference, and I prefer to support a breeder that works, trains, and trials their own dogs.  I think that they will know more about their dog, and thus make better pairings, than an experienced, well-intentioned breeder that has a kennel staff and trainers, or always buys titled dogs for their breeding program.

Also I am more critical of high volume breeding than I am how many dogs.  There's a difference between the two, IMO.  GSDs can have fairly large litters, and take 2-3 years to mature.  You simply cannot make a very accurate assessment of a dog's potential at 8-10 weeks old, so many good breeders hold their dogs back (maybe placing them with friends/co-owners so there are not actually dozens of dogs on one property). 

So I have less of a problem with a breeder "owning" a dozen dogs than I do with a breeder breeding dozens of litters each year.  Some are just craking out litters every few days. I have a real problem with this, regardless of how quality the parents are.  For one, it says to me that the breeder just assumes that putting titled dogs together is going to automatically create something equally nice.  It doesn't show me that they put any thought into what they are producing.  The breeders I have in mind might breed the same stud to 6 different females over the span of 2 months.  Second, there's just no way a breeder can give that many litters at a time the attention I feel they deserve.  I want my pups to be in a home and outside (not just kenneled in a cement run).  I want them handled by a variety of people and exposed to neurological stimulation.  If a breeder has 6+ litters on the ground at a time, there's just not enough hours in the day.  Again, I'm sure a kennel staff could do it, but that's just not the type of breeding program I want to support.  Nothing wrong with a kennel staff, but I'm looking for a breeder than really *knows* his/her dogs, not just recites their titles, scores, and pedigree.

Hello everyone!  I am very apprehensive about posting a reply here, but here I go.  First let me state that I am totally against puppymills, backyard breeders and people who not spay and nueter their dogs.  Truthfully I am tired of defending where I got my two wonderful Border collies.  I researched many breeders, I fell in love with this breed when we were showing horses.  I called numerous references from where I bought my BC's, they were very happy and great dogs.  So I am a lucky one, however; with that said, we basically had a "planned parent hood", what I mean is we planned for our boys, I was working from home and we knew what it would take to raise "well-balanced Border Collies".  Anyone who owns a BC, knows that they need OUR attention.      

A quick background, my husband and I left corporate America a year and half ago to start our own company.  After the dog food scare I started to really pay alot of attention on what we were feeding our dogs for treats.  It's very scarey!  So I created my own all organic, natural, fresh frozen dogs treats!  We are doing very well!  The reason I added this is that I want you all to know that we are people dedicated to "the spirit of dogs". 

With our company we were heavy supporters of changing the PA Dog Laws!  We are a wholesaler, with retailers and grocery stores.  When not making and delivering product, we support all the rescues that we can!  We recently raised 1700.00 in a few hours for CPAA.

 As for my breeder where I got my boys, he has called and has always been the nicest man, he did not try to sell me a dog I did not want, but listened to what our lifesytle was and what I was looking for in a BC.  He recommened certain pups from different litters and helped me to make my decision.  According to my vet he did a very good job in recommending two that had different personalities!  That was a new one on me, but now I see that was very wise.  No pressure and when I got them he called the nest day to make sure they got there ok.   I was not interested in titles,etc.  Trust me in the horse world you can have a Dam and a Sire with wonderful titles, pedigree and get a dud.  I go on personality and the look in their eye.   I can only judge someone by my own experiences and of those I know.  All the dogs that I know that also bought pups from my breeder (which are quite a few) are healthy, happy Border Collies in very good homes.  They had the ususal 72 hours check plus a six month health policy and I signed that I would not put them in a shelter if I could not keep them.  So, I only go by my experiences, I am not saying he is perfect, but my experiences have been very posistive and I could thank him everyday for breeding two wonderful puppies that make our life such a joy! Great Disc dogs, great family members and our best friends.  But anyone who owns a BC knows  they have their quirks, but that what keeps us on our toes.  That's why we love them!

I support you all in bad breeders who breed sick puppies, etc.  I have seen first hand what these dogs look like after helping a rescue.   So the above paragraph is why I defend my breeder.  Truthfully I once again apologize to the MOD, but had never seen her post, I only got the first post from tncowgirl thru notification in email and truthfully wondered "what's up with this"?   I toss it up to someone always has an opinion, whether it is right or wrong or indifferent.     

So to all of you go HUG your dogs tonight, they are the one thing that will always love you and be there no matter what!

Sincerely,

Linda Myers Drei        

I do not feel that websites or the classifieds are inherently evil.They are one place for the average person to START looking for a dog or puppy.Many of us don't have the connections to locate that illusive perfect breeder and even if we did we could end up getting on a list where we MIGHT expect to be considered for a puppy sometime in the next few years I found our first Aussie in the paper.She had numerous herding titles in her pedigree,health tests were done on the parents and all the pups had eyes tested.I signed an extensive contract that insured I would have her spayed,return her to the breeder if I could not keep her,notify the breeder yearly how she was doing and never tie her outside among other things.My point is this...There are good breeders who advertise to the general public but there is a great deal of sifting to be done before you find the right one.The thing that stands out in my mind with this internet buying is this........How could anyone purchase a puppy without seeing it in person.....several times,and meet the folks who bred it and the conditions under which it was raised.A breeder who has put their heart and soul into a raising a puppy with care couldn't ship him off to parts unknown with nothing but a Visa number to insure that pup will be in good hands.This to me is is the reddest flag....A breeder who is willing to ship without even meeting you.

Tena

We're not saying that web sites are evil (the web is also the first place I go), only that it's very easy to misrepresent things, or outright lie, and if people don't do their own research, they would never know any better.  Too many people think that "papers" and AKC registration *must* mean the breeder knows what they are doing. 

A few things I have found on popular GSD breeder's sites...

• listing dogs as being owned/on the premesis that are not owned and are not on the premesis
• selling grossly oversized dogs and passing them off as the "old world type" meanwhile the true GSD of yesteryear was very small, finer boned and compact dog, not 130lbs and overweight
  
• advertising dogs as being "suitable for" activitities such as SAR, police K9, and Schutzhund but having no dogs in the past three or more generations working in these activities
  

I agree with you so some extent, I talked to serveral breeders for six months.  When I got my pups this was not a impluse buy.  I felt very good that there was a strong understanding in what I was looking for in a dog.  Trust me, even when my husband and I said lets do it, I was unsure only because I felt that I had never bought a pup without holding it before, so I thought about it and all of a sudden I got this overwhelming thoughts about how people adopt babies site unseen and having never met the parents and did not sometimes even know the history of the parents.  So after feeling like I knew the pups already, I called and started the process.  I waited for three weeks as they were not old enough yet to come to their forever home.    I knew it was true that they were raised in the home, as they adjusted immediately.  When we picked them up, brought them home, they came out of the crate ran over to us as if to say"we are here"!  Once again I have a happy story, a positive experience.  But as active as we are in the dog world, I see good and bad on both sides.  No matter how much investigation you do, buy from a top breeder, puppies are like babies, too many variables in it, depends on the people if they truly understand the breed, how they raise them, etc.  You can have a puppy from a top line, and have it go bad or to a shelter.  I met a woman, who bought her BC from a top breeder in the Chicago area, I was at our retailer one day and she said she had two dogs, a BC and an Aussie.  Of course I replied excited that I had Three BC's-she looked at me like I was insane!!  She started telling me all about how her BC was crazy, got it from a great breeder, met the parents, etc.  But the dog was nuts.  I gave her the name of my trainer and she called before she was out of the parking lot. Come to find out after my trainers assessment, dog was fine only crazy because the person did not understand the breed.  I could tell you other stories, trust me there are really good breeders who are still selling to people who do not understand.  it's a vicious cycle, a huge problem all the way around.  Where we live not only do we have an over abundance of puppymills, but huge backyard or farm breeders.  Most of the BC's and Aussies are bred on farms, etc.  I would never buy a farm bred BC, trust me called many and they did not know their puppies personalities, etc.  It's oh we have 3 males and two females, etc.    

I think this is key too:

I was not interested in titles,etc.  [...] I go on personality and the look in their eye. 

For those that are interested in those things, web sites can be a real PITA because of how easy it is to exaggerate or misrepresent dogs.  Before I got Nikon, when I was looking, I was looking for certain titles, a certain type of dog from specific lines with the drives I wanted.  I contacted one breeder who does sell a lot of dogs just based on their website, e-mailed a list of simple yes/no questions and not a single one of my questions was answered, all I got was a few puppies that had been "discounted" and would I like to buy one of those right away.  Erm, no, pass....

There is no perfect breeder or perfect dog, but overall I am satisfied with Nikon.  I got what I was looking for without being given the run-around.  I know nothing was misrepresented because I work my dog alongside his mother at least once a week.

Bordercolliemom

She started telling me all about how her BC was crazy, got it from a great breeder, met the parents, etc.  But the dog was nuts.  I gave her the name of my trainer and she called before she was out of the parking lot. Come to find out after my trainers assessment, dog was fine only crazy because the person did not understand the breed

This is one more reason why an ethical breeder would want to meet me....grill me even before releasing a pup to me.Make sure I knew what I was getting into.I don't want you to feel defensive,I'm really glad your puppies ended up being exactly what you wanted.I'm even more happy that you were well informed about the needs of a BC before you aquired them.I fear you are not the typical buyer however.A sight unseen purchase is risky for the puppy and the buyer.

Tena

Tena,

Thank you!  I agree about site unseen, etc, however; if you are not implusive and take your time continually ask questions make your decisions on a leveled headed emotion. it can work.  Again I have seen the good and bad on both sides.  My trainer does paid family assessments for people who are thinking of getting apuppy or adopting a dog.  She tells me that majority of the time what people think they want is not what they need, she then assists them in finding the perfect match!  She has a 99% success with this program.    Since we started our dog treat business I have met so many people who have BC's,  young ones from rescues, that have great lines, great breeding, but even after the grilling from a breeder they still didn't get it!  Unfortunately no matter how good the breeder can grill a potential buyer, they can pull the wool over the breeders eyes also!  Once again, its a vicious cycle.

Website or not, the level of commitment to the breed as a whole also factors in.  I don't see anything wrong with getting a dog as a pet, however my commitment is to preserve and better the breed, so I put a lot more into selecting the dogs than I would if I were getting a pet.  I don't want to support a breeder that isn't commited to breed preservation, no matter how nice they are or how nice their dogs are.  For me, a breeder being expelled from the breed club would be sending up red flags like M80s in my living room.  I have to look beyond the dogs, and the bottom line is what type of person/breeding program am I willing to support.

Mod hat on, 

I can see folks are passionate about this BUT...

I see no reason, to essentially beat one person, about the head with the words bad breeder. You (general) are going to make people defensive and shut down..and that is not going to reach your goal. If someone has a firm opinion, then to go about changing it is really an exercise in IMO patience and trust...not blaring headlines and sensationalistic comments...be they true or not.

I really need to ask, as a Mod that this personally directed, pointed and insistent commentary...cease. If you are addressing ONE person...take it private.

If you are speaking GENERALLY...do not use links, which potentially can harm the Company and embroil them in legal issues...do not use names. TRUE or not true matters little if this company gets dragged into a court...the lawyer bills are the same.