Pyrenean Shepherds

 I met one at Crufts and it would be HIGH on my list of "potentials" in the future.  Neat, sweet, affectionate, clever.  They're good at agility apparently, and they love to learn.  Like most herders they do need to be kept active but you know what that's like. :)

A few years ago, a woman brought three of them to a herding clinic I was at in OH.  Two of the dogs had decent instinct, the other just didnt turn on that day.  Very similar to shelties in size and movement.  Seem finer boned but that is only because there is less coat covering their bodies.  These three were on the shy side when it came to strange preople.

These dogs experienced a short burst of popularity in Canada when the Border Collies "opted out" of the Kennel Club and agility competitors went looking for smallish, athletic, trainable dogs.  My understanding is that interest has waned because they tend to be uneven in their potential as training partners. 

They are willing enough to have fun, but can be difficult to socialize as they have a one-man, protective attitude towards their handlers.  Some Aussies are like this - actually many are, as it is correct for that breed as well.  They also have a strong "What's in it for me?" attitude that is reminiscent of shelties and was apparently disappointing for those looking for BC replacements. Also like shelties, their working potential is diluted by generations of conformation breeding unless you or your breeder imports direct from French working lines.

So, to sum up, they are not small Border Collies, but rather more like a cross between shelties and Aussies.  That might be good for some people! 

My main concerns after reading and talking to a couple of owners and then you guys are- shyness, and lack of drive.  I keep hearing the same thing that they can be really high speed dogs or they could just not be.  The main issues I have with the shelties, which I’ve had several from all different kinds of lines is the lack of drive.  As you said a ‘what’s in it for me’ attitude.  The only sheltie that could do what I wanted was physically unsound to do so.  Trey is also insanely shy and that is a big problem with him.  He’s great at home and great training wise but around strangers he’s just terrible no matter the socialization we do.  Of course, we got him as an adult so that might be part of the problem.  The other shelties were fine around strangers even if they didn’t go up and start fawning all over them like the paps.  I can deal with that definitely.  I’ve just realized that despite living with shelties for a long time, they’re not the best fit for me.

There are some pluses to the pyr sheps- I like the size a lot and i like the fact that based on the lines I see they do a lot of performance and conformation with them.  I’m not terribly into conformation and it wouldn’t bug me at all to just be able to do that with the paps (which I am sure I’ll have several throughout my life) but it is a plus. 

Basically I am looking for a small/medium dog with a desire to please and enough drive to enjoy doing sports.  However, I am not a serious sports competitor, I just do them for fun.  I need a dog that wants to be involved and wants to do things.  Summer is perfect for me in that way.  She has to go out and get her exercise or she’s restless and can get a bit destructive.  It sounds weird to say that but I’m much more inclined to actually exercise knowing that my dog needs it!  She’s a great learner and doesn’t need much motivation other than the fact that she loves doing things.  She’s very devoted and very in tune with me and she goes everywhere I can take her.  As far as exercise goes we do some obedience work daily, some agility a few times a week and we walk a few miles every day as well as get some offleash running/play time.  After having the shelties then the paps, I really appreciate the paps’ go get em attitude no matter what.  They’re always up for whatever and at the same time can lounge around the house the rest of the day. 

I guess I just worry about jumping straight into the bcs and was thinking there might be a good intermediate step between the breeds, lol.  At the same time, that’s kind of silly because I’ve done so much research... 

But to sum it up I want a companion/agility dog mainly.  Something that can keep up with Summer and with a similar work ethic.  Really in the 20-50 lb range.  Preferably doesn’t bark as much or require quite as much grooming as the shelties, but if they do then no big deal.  More drive than the shelties for sure and a higher energy level.  Preferably not as prone to be terribly shy though one man type dogs I can deal with.  The main thing is that it must be able to be around a toy dog because Summer is the first and foremost thing on my mind. 

any ideas?  

From the sporting group, I would check out Tollers,  You have enough background and experience.   You can find drive in corgies of both persuasions.

I know you weren't considering another sheltie, but have you looked at the Classic dogs? A member of one of my training clubs has had two from them (Dusty and Inky - on their website) and I am VERY impressed with them. :P

 And the offer of a spitz still stands. :P
 

If you are nervous about getting a BC, you might meet a few Tollers - or a lot of them, before you go there!  They are called the BC of the retriever world.  And apparently they suffer the same problems with the conformation/field lines split - you either get a full-on working dog, or a show dog with no work ethic.

I couldn't help but think the dog you describe IS a Border Collie.  Or an Aussie from real working lines (but you have to be careful of temperament there), or a very small English shepherd.

There's also something called a Spanish Water Dog that I'd get if I were only doing for fun herding, and other sports.  They are on the upward side of your range though.  They are like what Aussies used to be like a long time ago, and in fact they come from some of the same stock many generations ago (bobtailed Basque herding dogs). 

The Pyr Shep is, most likely, the dog that is behind the Aussie's origin (which I think puts them behind the English Shepherd and Border Collie as well). There are a couple of reputable Aussie folks who also have Pry Sheps, and my suggestion would be to talk to them to get more information about the breed.

Try these folks: http://www.terrablue.net/pyrshep/pyrshepinfo.html

Or this kennel: http://www.watermarkaussies.com/hearthsideaussies/available.html

I think the smooth face variety are adorable!

Laurelin_429

I guess I just worry about jumping straight into the bcs

JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!  The water's fine, you know you want to!!!!

Laurelin_429

But to sum it up I want a companion/agility dog mainly.  Something that can keep up with Summer and with a similar work ethic.  Really in the 20-50 lb range.  Preferably doesn’t bark as much or require quite as much grooming as the shelties, but if they do then no big deal.  More drive than the shelties for sure and a higher energy level.  Preferably not as prone to be terribly shy though one man type dogs I can deal with.  The main thing is that it must be able to be around a toy dog because Summer is the first and foremost thing on my mind. 

any ideas?  

A small young BC rescue whose propensity for sports is already showing sounds like the perfect solution!  I'm sure you could find one that would fit the bill nicely.

Like this girl:

Updated: 07/16/2008

Tippy

Awww, Tippy is cute!  I've been notoriously browsing BC rescues but reminding myself I can't have one just yet.   :(

The one thing I do worry about with rescues is soundness to do the agility.  That may be silly but our last rescue dog had terrible HD and I know he couldn't have done it.  (GSD)  I also wonder about how would be best to introduce a larger dog to Summer.  Summer's not really lived with a dog this size and I've never had a 6 lb dog and a 50 lb dog before...  I know they temperament test, but I really worry about HER reaction more than the BC.  She has lived with a GSD before in her old home and then the other paps and shelties, but I wonder if it might be easier to avoid conflicts with a puppy?  I want to minimize the risk of something happening.  I know they won't be trusted together when I'm not there to supervise but still I wonder what's the best choice as far as that goes...
 

I couldn't help but think the dog you describe IS a Border Collie. 

 That's what every BC owner I talk to is telling me lol!

And so is every aussie owner, too.  The issue with BC v Aussie to me really seems unusual.  Every Aussie person talks about Aussies being easier so far as energy level goes, but my experience says otherwise to me.  I work in the shelter, so I don't know if it's the environment but I find the BCs to be much easier to handle than the Aussies and much easier for me to connect with.  I try to work with both breeds and mixes as much as possible and i've really noticed a difference in type of energy.  I don't know that the aussies are more or less energetic than the bcs but they seem less focused... Again could be the shelter conditions.  If I had to describe, the Aussies are more like Beau and the BCs a lot like Summer.  Beau is ready to please but the entire time is jumping up and down with a huge grin on his face, staring at his toy in your hand.  Summer is always ready to work, but she's focused and really keyed in on her handler at all times.  My friends and people that meet her seem to think she 'stares too much' lol.  She's a very bizarre papillon.  I've never met a working line aussie before though, just show dogs, pet dogs, and the shelter aussies of who knows what origin. 

And I must meet little Lizzie sometime!  :)
 

Laurelin_429

I try to work with both breeds and mixes as much as possible and i've really noticed a difference in type of energy.

It's funny you say that. My agility instructor and I were talking about that the other day -- namely because Luna (my Aussie) was rocking around the tire jump, going through, around, under any which way she could. She wasn't stopping to think, just doing, even though she knows the tire jump and has done it in the same place, in the same field, etc.

I call it "here for the party" mode, and it means we need to do some focus work to get her back on task.

 I don't know of this breeder personally, but there are several people competing in agility with dogs that came from them and they might not be too far from you.  You could ask around about them on some border collie boards.  I don't believe in breeding for sports, but if a good working dog does well in other things also, that might be an option for you.  A puppy would probably learn best how to handle the paps from a young age, you'd just have the problem of not knowing for sure what potential it might have until it's older.  There's pros and cons both ways, I guess.

http://www.lockeyebc.com 

I know a woman with a new litter of working aussies here in VA, if you were wanting to hop a plane and go that route!     Gorgeous mom and pop too!  ***ETA: Oops, just checked, all spoken for.***