Pyrenean Shepherds

    • Gold Top Dog

     There's a lot of Lockeye dogs here (and I seriously covet one but have heard mixed reviews of their practices), but you know, you've also got the Heelalong dogs down in your area too- they're outside of San Marcos, IIRC- and they don't breed often, but MAN, when they do- their dogs are AWESOME.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm not really ready for breeders now, but I always like time to look into people.  Especially in a breed that is such a far cry from papillons breeder wise and full of politics lol... 

    Pit_Pointer_Aussie

    Laurelin_429
    I try to work with both breeds and mixes as much as possible and i've really noticed a difference in type of energy.

     

    It's funny you say that. My agility instructor and I were talking about that the other day -- namely because Luna (my Aussie) was rocking around the tire jump, going through, around, under any which way she could. She wasn't stopping to think, just doing, even though she knows the tire jump and has done it in the same place, in the same field, etc.

    I call it "here for the party" mode, and it means we need to do some focus work to get her back on task.

     

    Beau is notorious for that.  One his favorite things is to jump repeatedly over the seesaw for some reason lol.  There was a point you couldn't get out a toy because he'd go so wild for it.  The good news is he's easily motivated, lol!  With him you are always trying to keep him down at an acceptable energy level.  He has gotten better now that he's a 'mature' adult, but only with a lot of self control work.  He's still not as solid in that area as Summer. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    If you'd like help with both rescues local to you and reputable breeders (let's just say we haven't seen one mentioned here yet and leave it at that), please look me up when the time comes.  I'm a director on the USBCC Board and heavily involved with ABCA and USBCHA.  There's a very active stockdog handlers' association in your area, with many people I trust.  My Ted's mama came from Hayre Ranch (Bud Budreau) in west TX and I've worked with Francis Raley in Crawford - and she would know the good ones closer to you for sure (I believe she's the secretary for the Texas Sheep Dog Association).  Here's the TSDA web site, direct link to upcoming trials: http://www.texassheepdogassoc.org/06%20-%20upcoming%20trials.htm

    Be VERY careful of breeders in your area.  There's some really bad ones but I won't mention them.  It's really not a good idea, I think, to randomly suggest breeders by name on a board like this as they get "hit" from the mentions, every time the thread is open, then every time the site is visited even to go look, not to mention the people who only see the name and go no further to see whether it was a good mention or a bad one.  I never mention names publicly for that reason.

    • Gold Top Dog

    There's a trial in Hilsboro, which is not too far in September.  Maybe I can make it out there. 

    I have some BC rescues I've looked at and kind of stored away for the future in TX.  I have had terrible luck just trying to google bc breeders and looking for something that seemed reputable around here.  I initially said I wouldn't go with a breeder just because of politics, but I really am not sure.  I know most bc people suggest an adult rescue for a first time bc owner, but I really need something pretty predictable.  Without dragging out all the politics I know I have preferences towards certain types of border collies.  I've known people with about every type I can think of and then I work with all the shelter dogs of who knows what breeding.  The conformation dogs simply just do not appeal to me.  Temperament, looks, anything.  I don't know why but they don't have that 'it' factor and just leave me with a blah feeling.  I know one sports bred dog and he literally drives me up the wall but I have been very pleased with all the working bred dogs I know.  I haven't had a working bred dog, though, since I was just a kid (field bred lab) and have no idea how to find a good breeder.  I have really also liked the unknowns at the shelter except a few seem to be really really shy, but of course it could be the environment.  But I do wonder how many good working breeders would sell a pup to a novice. 

     I have found a couple breeders that I liked, but all on the far side of the country from me.  One specific breeder I had really really liked, I heard something about one of their breedings that really made me uneasy.  I may pm you and ask you about that and see if you know how common it'd be to do this.  Anyways, I'm rambling again.

    I know no matter what breed that if it's a herding breed, I'd love to try my hand at actual herding in addition to the agility but I have no idea how to start that since I live somewhere where sheep isn't really an option. 

    Still I can't start really looking until at the least a year.  My mother (who I don't live with but thinks I am insane for wanting a border collie in the first place) wants me to foster in the future just to see what it's like.  I actually think it could be a good thing to do before fully committing. 
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Laurelin_429

      Without dragging out all the politics I know I have preferences towards certain types of border collies.
     

     

    What? Politics in the BC world?  Surely you jest!  Stick out tongueWink   Good luck with your search, I'm sure whatever you end up with will love it's new home and never want for a thing!  Lucky dog.  Smile

    • Gold Top Dog
    Lol, I try. ;)
    • Gold Top Dog

    Laurelin_429

    If I had to describe, the Aussies are more like Beau and the BCs a lot like Summer.  Beau is ready to please but the entire time is jumping up and down with a huge grin on his face, staring at his toy in your hand.  Summer is always ready to work, but she's focused and really keyed in on her handler at all times.  My friends and people that meet her seem to think she 'stares too much' lol.  She's a very bizarre papillon.  I've never met a working line aussie before though, just show dogs, pet dogs, and the shelter aussies of who knows what origin. 

    Summer sounds just like Kirby when it comes to staring because he is a major stare-a-holic and I've also had people/friends comment on it.

    I also think he seems bizarre as far as papillons go since he is the first one I've met that isn't a total social butterfly.  Feel so bad when other people want to pet him because he often could care less and will ignore them or look in their direction from a distance while their calling his name like... "Yes, you would love to pet my beautiful soft fur wouldn't you?" Cool

    • Gold Top Dog

    BCMixs

     I don't know of this breeder personally, but there are several people competing in agility with dogs that came from them and they might not be too far from you.  You could ask around about them on some border collie boards.

    http://www.lockeyebc.com 

     

    I will comment on this breeder.  I've met two dogs from there.  One is great with people and tries to eat every other dog.  The owner does strict management and is working on CC for being calm around other dogs but it is frustrating for the owner.

    The other I've met once and she tried to eat my face.  I watched her from a distance at first and she was reactive to every dog going by and any person that looked in her direction.

    Both dogs under 2 years of age.  Both purchased by the owners and received via airplane at 8 weeks of age.  Not the same litter however.

    Both dogs are absolutely beautiful and under 21" and definitely under 40 lbs.

    Just sayin'.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Pyr Shepherds were a breed that I thought sounded like really cool little dogs when I first looked into them. Several years ago their National was local to me and I ended up at it during the performance events because they were offering an all-breed herding instinct test (which was done with little baby Shetlands who thought the dogs were their moms but that is another story LOL). I was extremely surprised with the temperaments of the Pry Shepherds after spending an afternoon there. None were aggressive but a good number did not want to be touched by strangers or would tolerate being touched but looked very uncomfortable. Quite a few were jumpy-reactive type dogs too. Was not what I was expecting at all and I would certainly suggest spending time with a good number of them before making a choice about getting one.

      A lot of the herding breeds fit your size description (some of these I don't know would suit your needs or not because I don't have much experience with them): BCs, Aussies, Mini-Aussies/North American Shepherds, ACDs, Belgians, Mudik, Pulik, Polish Lowland Sheepdog, Kelpie, Pumi.

     The Corgis fit your size too but IMO they have been changed a lot by show breeding and it is difficult to find them with enough drive and good enough structure for performance. Valhundes as well but they are a more primitive breed and have a more spitz-type temperament. I would suggest staying away from performance bred BCs - nice working bred ones should have more than enough drive and ability to be good performance dogs. I think you probably already know that but just wanted to add my two cents LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

     Agile - I'd strike the Pumi off the list of dogs that might meet requirements better than a Pyrenean Shep - the male I know is awful (dog and person reactive and his owner blows it off as "breed trait";), and the female I know is quite shy (18mo and does not like to be touched by strangers).

    • Gold Top Dog

    stardog85

     Agile - I'd strike the Pumi off the list of dogs that might meet requirements better than a Pyrenean Shep - the male I know is awful (dog and person reactive and his owner blows it off as "breed trait";), and the female I know is quite shy (18mo and does not like to be touched by strangers).

     

     Interesting. It does seem that many herding breeds have a tendency towards this issue, although it certainl is worse in some than others. I have never met a Pumi IRL, which is why i said I didn't know enough to know if some of these breeds were suitable or not.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I'm still interested in pyr sheps. I talked to a breeder about a year ago and it is very important to them that you meet the dogs first before committing because they are an unusual breed. It ended up being the wrong time for a puppy because my mom fell ill and passed away right after I started talking to the breeder. I ended up just getting another papillon a year later and I think I'll just hold off for a well bred working border collie in a couple years. It wasn't the right time for a BC with living in an apartment and being a student so I compromised and got the highest drive pap I could find, lol. I think the BC may have been easier some days.... Mia is hitting 6 months now and she's a real mess. But anyways... I've attended my first USBCHA trial so we'll see where this goes in the future. :) As far as other breeds go, herders in general intrigue me and I'd not mind having a few. I have had quite a few shelties already but doubt I will go back to them for various reasons. Definitely will have BCs though and hopefully another GSD too.
    • Gold Top Dog

     The most disturbing thing about the Pumis I know is that their owner is planning on breeding them!  I'm one of those that strongly believes that people shouldn't be breeding dogs with human or dog reactivity, regardless of their "breed traits", so this woman just drives me to distraction. :P

    Laurelin - I think you're on the right track with the BCs, and I know you'll do all the research needed.  Any dog would be lucky to have you! :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    stardog85

     The most disturbing thing about the Pumis I know is that their owner is planning on breeding them!  I'm one of those that strongly believes that people shouldn't be breeding dogs with human or dog reactivity, regardless of their "breed traits", so this woman just drives me to distraction. :P

     Temperament, like any trait can be improved through selective breeding. No dog is perfect and most dogs have some area where their temperament or working ability could use to be improved. That requires one to first, realize where their dog needs to be improved and then be super selective about choosing a mate. It also depends on a lot of stuff - the severity of the problem, the temperaments of relatives and the individual dog's history. And of course, some dogs temperaments are bad enough that it is best just to not breed them at all, especially if there are first degree relatives with similar issues. Breeding two overly reactive dogs together and expecting puppies who aren't overly reactive is just....dumb.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Here is an interesting article on Pyr Sheps by Silvia Trkman who has competed in the highest levels of agility with her Pyr Shepherds. The article is on her website: http://silvia.trkman.net/

     FearSheps?

    I got a worried mail from a friend who is thinking to get a PyrShep puppy – and she is a little bit discouraged now that she has heard some people call them FearSheps, explaining to her that most of the dogs are so scared that won't work with distractions around. She is asking if that's true and what is my experience. So here is a longish version of my answer, maybe not too interesting for other visitors, but PyrShep fans might find it interesting – and might agree or not with me, it’s up to you, you’re also welcome to mail me with your thoughts on this subject.

    I’ve seen many, many PyrSheps all around the world since anywhere I go for the seminar, all the PyrSheps fanciers from all around will come, I’ve also done seminars for breed clubs and I also visited many breeders when searching for La, so I sure did see many dogs of this breed. Based on my experience, my answer to a question is: NO, fearfulness is NOT a problem in the breed. Lack of drive is.

     

    I have had many, many people explain to me that their PyrShep is just too worried about the surroundings to be able to work… And in every dog that I’ve seen with such a diagnosis, I saw something completely different: I saw a dog that was not having enough fun while working and was looking around for the excuses, barking at people, things and shadows. So my advice was always to stop worrying about their fears and do some serious work on their drive and try to make agility way more fun to them.

     

    Believe it or not, but Lo was the most fearful puppy I’ve ever seen. She was terrified of people, every noise, traffic included, dogs, cats, trash and her own shadow among others. Yes,  extensive socialization did help and it was definitely necessary for such a scared puppy, BUT what made the biggest difference was work. My major focus was to make her crazy about working and playing and when I succeeded in this area, she was able to work whatever, in whichever surroundings. At this time, she was still terribly afraid of almost everything, but when she got to work, the scary world stopped existing as far as she was concerned. And soon, she realized that’s the best way to cope with your fears: to focus on me and forget about the rest of the world. If you look at her today, you would never call her fearful. She actually still is, so don’t be too pushy around her, but you can take her to whatever environment, make whatever noise, even the shooting that she clearly is still afraid – and she will work, no questions asked, with her happy expression on her face.

     

    Now, La is a different story. She knows no fears, she is loaded with tons of confidence and isn’t afraid of anything. STILL, when on a walk and she sees something strange, she will bark: not because she was afraid, but simply because she finds it fun. She knows she was bred to warn about things and still loves to do it – when she has nothing better to do. Give her something better to do and she will forget about the fun of warning.

     

    And yes, most of the PrySheps that were described to me as too fearful to be able to work, were not even closely as fearful as Lo is, they just thought that warning is more fun as working with their handler. They behaved exactly like my brave, fearless La when she is bored. So… Make working with you more fun for your dog! Make him crazy about running with you, make him happy to work with you. And I guarantee all your fear issues will disappear. 

     

     

     

    How easy or not this will be depends on how much drive your dog has. Lo has enough drive that this was pretty easy. Bu has no drive, so it was very, very hard and the process has been very, very long and it has not yet been finished – she will still stop working when the distraction is too big. I don’t blame her fearfulness for that, even though she is more timid as any of the PyrSheps that I have met. I blame the lack of drive. She works because she thinks it’s fun, but there is not much drive involved in there. – This is just to tell that my major concern when getting a PryShep puppy wouldn’t be how fearful or not he is, but how much drive he has. If you have enough drive, it’s very easy to overcome fears. If you don’t have it, then it gets complicated, then you need to become the most trust-worthy and fun handler in the world. It can be done, it’s just not as easy as if you have a dog that gets green eyes when he sees a ball – or food or a tunnel or whatever it is that makes him crazy.

     

    So again, the biggest problem I’m seeing in the breed is lack of drive, NOT fearfulness. And if you want to work through a problem, stop asking your dog to sit in laps of strangers and take food from them etc., this is not helping you at all to go through the problem. I was doing it with Lo too at the beginning, but I soon realized that it’s contra-productive, it only made her feel under pressure around strangers and an idea that she needs to interact with them made her uncomfortable. So I stopped asking her to do that and she was immediately more relaxed: if I don’t have to have anything with them, then they can be there if they want to, why not?

     

    Instead of asking your dog to do what they’re not supposed to do as it’s written in their genes,  just make them crazy about working with you. They’re supposed to be crazy about working with you. And I mean CRAZY. Happy is not enough.

     

    It’s when he is crazy that your PyrShep will stop caring about things that can be barked at. And if you also want my opinion on sitting on somebody’s else lap: it’s not the breed characteristic, if you want a dog that would want to sit in everybody’s lap, get another breed. Of course, some PyrSheps do it, even without special training, so you can get a puppy like this, it’s just that if this is very important for you, you might be in the wrong breed. And no, my brave, fearless, over-confident, full of herself La won’t jump into your lap if not told to by me. Why? No, not because she were afraid. She isn’t afraid. She is just not interested. She didn’t yet notice you exist, she just doesn’t care. She is very big-headed, snobbish dog and will not even look at you. She just wants to work. And yes, she will work with everybody if asked to, but no, she can’t say hi. I don’t even want her to say hi, because I don’t think it’s the breed characteristic and yes, I love and respect the breed as it is. I don’t want a social butterfly, I don’t want a dog to be all over everybody. As I said somewhere else: my favourite characteristic in a dog is craziness. And you can find lots of it in lots of PyrSheps and that’s why it’s my favourite breed. Unfortunately, I do see a trend of making them less crazy, less hyper, less drivey, to make them more user-friendly. And this is the biggest problem I see in the breed. About fearfulness, I don’t care at all – as long as I have drive that will overcome it.

     

    And yes, some PyrSheps won’t work with distractions around. But no, after seeing that many PyrSheps as I have, I don’t buy it that your PyrShep is leaving a ring to bark at somebody because he is afraid. He is only doing it because he is not crazy enough about what you two are doing in the ring. When you get him crazy enough about it and I will see him run full speed with you in a ring, I’m sure I never see him again to run out of it. It’s as easy as that.  

     

    So, to answer the question: are PyrSheps really FearSheps? Well, some are, some aren’t… I have one FearShep and one BraveShep – but an observer that doesn’t know them couldn’t tell you which is which… All that he could tell you is that they’re both CrazyShep. And that’s all that matters, you don’t need more than that. I hope breeders realize that too before it’s too late. Unfortunately, what I’m seeing is a tendency towards more user-friendly, friendlier and calmer dogs, forgetting about first sentence of the breed standard that describes a PyrShep as “maximum of nervous energy in minimum body size”. As long as your puppy fits in that description that is in my opinion the best and most important description of the breed, you’re on the right path. No fear to get a FearShep if you’ve got a CrazyShep!