from Showing to Working?

well I'd imagine it'd be slow going considering that anyone you ask for help or input from what you post, would likely simply laugh and walk away?

perhaps a bit less ridicule on both sides, is warranted for this to have success.

Just an idea.

Seems to me the obvious thing is a work/show line cross, then go from there.

My "heart breed", Maremma sheepdogs, are eligible to be shown here, but they aren't in North America.  Maremmas are used for 2 things in Italy (and elsewhere) now - their original, LGD purpose, and for guarding estates.  In Italy this is somewhat geographical, in the south they are estate dogs and in the north, used as LGDs. 

I went to a Maremma show on Sunday.  With one exception, every one of the dogs there is a working dog, doing one or the other of the jobs Maremmas are used for.  In the Maremma show ring, correct movement is judged as the movement of a Maremma going through a flock of sheep - head down, not prancing.  The only serious Maremma breeder in the UK (there are a few who sometimes have a litter, there is really only one who breeds "regularly", that being every year or two) breeds for everything.  Working ability, conformation, and temperament above all else.  Any one of her "pet" puppies could be turned into a working dog, although for maximum effectiveness a Maremma should be introduced to its flock as a puppy. 

My point is, not all breeds have been "divided".  Here, where Maremmas can be shown, those in the ring can and do still work.

DumDog

now... its easy to turn a working breed into show dog material*, but what about the other way around? turning a show dog back into a worker and doing their original jobs on the farm or field? i wonder if that would be a huge undertaking and not worth the effort or if it would be just as easy as breeding for conformation?

To me, from a GSD perspective, it would be a waste of time.  Why not breed to improve the stock that is already bred for work and sport, rather than going backwards by taking stock bred almost exclusively for looks/show and select for work and sport?  If you mix the two, again you are going backwards because if one of the two dogs IS a proven working dog and the other is a show dog, you have to assume the least common denominator sort of thing...you aren't going to improve a working dog with a show line dog so why breed that way?  I guess if other breeds are now only bred for looks/show, that's a different story.  At least with GSDs there are plenty of lines to chose from that produce proven working dogs with the correct structure and temperament.

To me, from a GSD perspective, it would be a waste of time.

I disagree.

As a future breeder, my goal is to produce dogs that can do sport/work AND show, not OR show.

Why can't I have it all? Why can't I have a dog that does more than just "play at" schutzhund or win in a conformation ring?  The West German dogs don't have that, and the toplines and fronts are TERRIBLE.  The American dogs tend to be over done and their brains can be....lacking.  The East German Czech dogs tend to be too coarse and lack coat, and some of the drives are so extreme, the dogs are impossible to live with.

The dogs I've found I like the most?  Crosses.  There are some absolutely beautiful crosses out on the show circuit right now that I'd love to take into a performance ring, and I plan on getting my foundation stock from these kennels.

Darby-Dan, Amari, Fairway, Samuri, Hausmekon, and Candia are the breeders I'm looking at....Particularly the first four.  Moderate dogs that I could take into the performance ring.

I plan on having and breeding for it all. 

 I think that it depends on the instinct of the dog. Have all show dogs been diluted from their natural instincts? I don't think so. I think the owner/handler plays a huge part in either turning on or off those instincts to get what they want from the dog.

Xeph

To me, from a GSD perspective, it would be a waste of time.

I disagree.

As a future breeder, my goal is to produce dogs that can do sport/work AND show, not OR show.

Why can't I have it all? Why can't I have a dog that does more than just "play at" schutzhund or win in a conformation ring?  The West German dogs don't have that, and the toplines and fronts are TERRIBLE.  The American dogs tend to be over done and their brains can be....lacking.  The East German Czech dogs tend to be too coarse and lack coat, and some of the drives are so extreme, the dogs are impossible to live with.

The dogs I've found I like the most?  Crosses.  There are some absolutely beautiful crosses out on the show circuit right now that I'd love to take into a performance ring, and I plan on getting my foundation stock from these kennels.

Darby-Dan, Amari, Fairway, Samuri, Hausmekon, and Candia are the breeders I'm looking at....Particularly the first four.  Moderate dogs that I could take into the performance ring.

I plan on having and breeding for it all. 

I LOVE Amari dogs!  At least as far as conformation/show dogs are concerned.  I agree, most of my show faves are German/American crosses, but I have no idea if they are proven working dogs or from lines with proven working dogs.  To me work is more than just titling in SchH. I would consider a dog as being proven as a working dog if the dog and the progeny are competing in Sch or ringsport at a high level (competing at national and international competitions) and the progeny are doing well as police K9s, border patrol dogs, military dogs, narcotics, etc.  Not just being training and titled...but excelling.  I do like a lot of Am lines and Am dogs as well as crosses, but I don't know of any that are really proven working dogs.  It could be that the working line people won't recognize them and won't show them to me....

What I mean is, if the goal is to better the working abilities and working structure of the dog...what would be the point of crossing to show lines?  Why would you not outcross to other proven working lines?  I think the goal of having a dog that is "for it all" is a different goal.  Maybe Dum can clarify...

I think it really depends on the breed you're looking at.  Beauceron, being a new breed to AKC, hasn't really be split yet (which is why I was looking into getting one!), so having a conformation and working dog in that breed would be no problem.  GSDs, on the other hand, not so much.  I must agree with Liesje.  I think crossing American bred GSDs with German and Czeck lines would give you a pretty odd assortment of look and temperament.  I'm sure there would be a couple nice dogs that may be closer to winning in the conformation ring and being able to work, but what about the rest of the litter?  In my mind its playing with fire.  I'd prefer that the judges would just stick with the conformation that the GSDs SHOULD have, and then there would be the possibility for dogs that can win in both. 

 I'm pretty biased, though.  I think that if a dog can't do its job, then it shouldn't be able to win in the conformation ring either.  I firmly believe that in order to compete in a conformation show, a dog should also be competing in some type of "working" job. Obviously there would be exceptions to the rule (as in dogs that were originally bred for fighting, companions, etc.).  I'm more talking the working, herding, sporting, and terrier groups.  But that's just my opinion and I know it will never happen that way.  Its just that, to me, if a dog can't funtion properly enough to do what it was bred to do, then it shouldn't be able to win in a conformation show either.

I know some would argue, but I just know way too many Champion Weimaraners with hunter titles behind their names, many actually being hunted over.  I think this maybe a more prolific problem in some breeds, but I'd say there are many that still do their original purpose as well as conformationally correct, which is what everyone should be striving for.

While some people may laugh at "prancing" dogs, there is a very good reason for showing dogs, just because one dog has terrific hunting instincts, doesn't mean it should be bred, hip problems, or lung capacity could keep it from being truly spectacular.  Conformation for each dog breed has a purpose, to help it accomplish it's job.  Some laugh cause it looks like a sissy-sport or some such, but I wouldn't base my entire opinion of working vs. conformation dogs on those people's opinions. 

Sera_J

I know some would argue, but I just know way too many Champion Weimaraners with hunter titles behind their names, many actually being hunted over.  I think this maybe a more prolific problem in some breeds, but I'd say there are many that still do their original purpose as well as conformationally correct, which is what everyone should be striving for.

While some people may laugh at "prancing" dogs, there is a very good reason for showing dogs, just because one dog has terrific hunting instincts, doesn't mean it should be bred, hip problems, or lung capacity could keep it from being truly spectacular.  Conformation for each dog breed has a purpose, to help it accomplish it's job. 

 I think Weims, Viszlas and GSP have a much greater number of dogs who can do good in the breed ring and be good workers. You don't see that in all sporting dogs though. It has been many, many years since there has been a dual CH ESS and there is a huge split in the breed. There is a big split in Goldens, Labs and all the Setters as well. The conformation ring doesn't test for hip problems or lung capacity, it doesn't even always test for structure ;)

Workingdoglover

 I think that if a dog can't do its job, then it shouldn't be able to win in the conformation ring either.

I agree with this for working/sporting dogs. this reminds me of a discussion that went on in an aussie list I'm on. Some people were offended that a working aussie - that was showing gripping a cow - was put on the cover of "Aussie Times". They said that it gave the wrong impression of the breed. That the aussie looked crazy and mean, etc. The other side of the coin was that this is how aussies work. If flock get stubborn, they grip on the heel or nose. 

I couldn't even believe that the discussion was going on. It seemed to me that some show breeders had completely forgot what the breed was made for.  

Liesje

Darby-Dan, Amari, Fairway, Samuri, Hausmekon, and Candia are the breeders I'm looking at....Particularly the first four.  Moderate dogs that I could take into the performance ring.

  I checked out Amari's site and some of their dogs are nice but I didn't see even one with so much as an OB or performance title. With the exception of two German showline imports, Darby Dan's dogs are lacking in anything other than conformation titles too. Fairway has more performance accomplishments but they have a ton of dogs, I'd wonder how they would be able to work all of them. Samuri has a few dogs with tests and entry level titles and Candia has some HICs. Hausmekon also doesn't have much in performance or working titles, just some entry level herding titles. I know the sire of one of their dogs, as well as two of his littermates. I wanted them grow up and have had two dogs from his breeder. He doesn't have close to what can be considered a working temperament and while he and his brother are pretty sound, the sister is shy and nervey.

 Have you ever heard of Andaka GSDs? They are worth looking into, as they regularly title their dogs and have some advanced OB titles. I've never seen the dogs in person but have liked them from what I've heard/read. Still hard to say if they would have true working temperaments or not: http://members.aol.com/andaka/andaka.htm

Another to check out is Hollow Hills: http://www.hollowhillsgsd.com/hhgsd.html They have more and more German showlines it seems but have had some nice German showline/Amline crosses. Also some of their German showlines look like they might stand a chance in the AKC all breed rings, depending on your area. 

 There are already GSDs that "do it all". To register a litter with SV/US the parents both have to have a conformation rating/title, a working title and a hip rating. There are other German working lines than the Czech/East German dogs you mentioned. I personally wouldn't want a GSD from those lines either.

 I've only met one HausMekon boy (I checked Xeph, that's the boy I met at the match) and I liked him okay but wasn't that imperssed. (He was more sound sensitive and less confident than Mal, who, it should be admitted, is EXTREMELY well-socialized and has exceptionally strong nerves for a collie). OTOH, Samuri's got dogs doing other things in performanec homes. I think a lot of it is just the sheer time it takes to finish dogs- what Xeph is going to need to do is find kennels that are behind dogs that are doing well in performance and their own dogs are doing well in conformation. (Of course, my inclination- and I'm not a GSD person, just an interested bystander ;P, would be to pick the prettiest WORKING dogs (I'm rather partial to the Czech dogs :P) with good livability and find a way to campaign them in conformation. :P

The other hard thing about actual working dogs, as I see it, is that no handler of narcotics or police dogs is going to be able to give up his dog every weekend to show- and it ttakes a LONG time to title a GSD, compared to say, a Cardi or an Eskie.  

 Cait
 

AgileGSD

 I think Weims, Viszlas and GSP have a much greater number of dogs who can do good in the breed ring and be good workers. You don't see that in all sporting dogs though. It has been many, many years since there has been a dual CH ESS and there is a huge split in the breed. There is a big split in Goldens, Labs and all the Setters as well. The conformation ring doesn't test for hip problems or lung capacity, it doesn't even always test for structure ;)

 As I said "this maybe a more prolific problem in some breeds"... as I know there is, however, my experience is in Weims.  And the depth of chest is usually a good marker for lung capacity, I realize that the judge doesn't test for hips, but I'd say that most conformation breeders do.  And as for checking structure, that's the point of showing.  There will always be bad judges, or mistakes made.  But as a general rule of thumb what is conformation if not looking at structure, temperament, etc against the breed standard?  

Sadly standards are open to interpretation. What "medium stop" is to one person is not to another. But that's not the question.  In my breed dual champions are still found.

Workingdoglover

I think that if a dog can't do its job, then it shouldn't be able to win in the conformation ring either.  I firmly believe that in order to compete in a conformation show, a dog should also be competing in some type of "working" job.

Well said!  I couldn't agree more.